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  #1  
Old 06-13-2007
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Racing Workout

I am not sure where the best place to put this is but so I put it in the race series discussions. Anyways, I want to know what you guys think are important muscles to work out for driving. I would imagine a lot of the core and back along with the caffs (sp?). What do you guys think?
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Last edited by sydude; 06-15-2007 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 06-13-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Core strength, forearm and wrist strength, overall balance and cardiovascular conditioning. It's really important for your mind to have a stable and efficient platform under it to perform, without having to expend excess processing to deal with/control an overworked and stressed body.
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Old 06-14-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by sydude
Core strength, forearm and wrist strength, overall balance and cardiovascular conditioning. It's really important for your mind to have a stable and efficient platform under it to perform, without having to expend excess processing to deal with/control an overworked and stressed body.
Ditto that. I would add a concentration on calf muscles for braking control. The ability to bring heavy force to bear quickly on the brake pedal, but in a controlled, modulated manner, takes pretty good calf strength. And of course you do this many times per lap after lap. You want to be able to squeeze the pedal quickly, not just jamb it.
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Old 06-14-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

What Sy said, plus neck strength..Karting is a good way to work all of these things, plus works on your concentration and traction sensing..
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Old 06-14-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Ideally, run an hour or bike two hours plus 300 push-ups and 300 bent-leg sit ups, every day. My reality, more than half that - Revere about doubles the aerobic bits.

Also, weight is important in low powered Skippy cars as every pound "consumes" horsepower. A 220 pounder is giving up the equivalent of 7 hp to a 160 pounder. The 120 pound kid has the equivalent of an extra 11+ hp. Heavier drivers aren't x seconds slower per lap, they're x pounds slower per lap. A few years ago, Charlie Hilmer lost about 70 pounds and moved from mid pack to regular podium contender in Masters.
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Old 06-14-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Greist
...Also, weight is important in low powered Skippy cars as every pound "consumes" horsepower. A 220 pounder is giving up the equivalent of 7 hp to a 160 pounder. The 120 pound kid has the equivalent of an extra 11+ hp. Heavier drivers aren't x seconds slower per lap, they're x pounds slower per lap. ...
Amen to that Doctor. Force = Mass x Acceleration. More mass, less acceleration. 220 lbs at the 3 day school and the youngsters just walked away out of the slow corners. Down to 190 now. For the first time in ten years did a sub 2 hour 1/2 marathon 4 weeks ago.
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Last edited by Rosso; 06-14-2007 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 06-14-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Losing weight for sex appeal is over-rated. losing weight to go faster made more sense to me. sounds like i am not the only one
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Old 06-14-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Greist
Also, weight is important in low powered Skippy cars as every pound "consumes" horsepower. A 220 pounder is giving up the equivalent of 7 hp to a 160 pounder.
My reply is designed to entice Rosso into some engineering analysis. The 220 pounder also adds some ballast that is the equivalent of some wing going into and through corners -- how much wing and how much more than a 160 pounder is the question.

Can a heavier driver actually go a bit faster through a corner? It seems intuitive that when applying the pedal on the way out of a corner, the lighter drivers have an advantage. But if the heavier driver can exploit the extra load on the tires and maintain more speed into and through the corner, then the average speed difference from turn-in to track-out between a lighter and heavier driver can be reduced. And especially if the heavier driver can maintain higher rpms and get on power a tad earlier, then the key factor of speed onto the following straight is not tipped so much in favor of the lighter driver.

Rosso? Anybody else?
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Old 06-14-2007
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Wink Re: Racing Workout

There are a couple of "muscles" that are known to disappear going into fast corners and areas with no runoff. Unfortunately I don't know how to make them either stronger or bigger. Some days they need to be the size of oranges!

OLDMAN
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Old 06-14-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso
Amen to that Doctor. Force = Mass x Acceleration. More mass, less acceleration. 220 lbs at the 3 day school and the youngsters just walked away out of the slow corners. Down to 190 now. For the first time in ten years did a sub 2 hour 1/2 marathon 4 weeks ago.
Way to go Al! Several others are losing weight to go faster - better health is an added benefit. We're all gonna fear you at 180 and below.
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Old 06-14-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by chsutherland
Losing weight for sex appeal is over-rated. losing weight to go faster made more sense to me. sounds like i am not the only one
I thought it worked for both though I've not been in the other game for 47 years and don't expect to be again.
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Old 06-14-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDMAN
There are a couple of "muscles" that are known to disappear going into fast corners and areas with no runoff. Unfortunately I don't know how to make them either stronger or bigger. Some days they need to be the size of oranges!

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Old 06-14-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Thanks for the input guys.
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Old 06-14-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by WatertownNewbie
My reply is designed to entice Rosso into some engineering analysis. The 220 pounder also adds some ballast that is the equivalent of some wing going into and through corners -- how much wing and how much more than a 160 pounder is the question.

Can a heavier driver actually go a bit faster through a corner? It seems intuitive that when applying the pedal on the way out of a corner, the lighter drivers have an advantage. But if the heavier driver can exploit the extra load on the tires and maintain more speed into and through the corner, then the average speed difference from turn-in to track-out between a lighter and heavier driver can be reduced. And especially if the heavier driver can maintain higher rpms and get on power a tad earlier, then the key factor of speed onto the following straight is not tipped so much in favor of the lighter driver.

Rosso? Anybody else?
Geez, where to start..."no" is the short answer. Ballast is a bad comparison because it's not apples and apples with aero generated downforce. The heavier driver exerts greater loads in two planes when cornering, both normal (same direction as gravity) and radial (centrifugal, toward the outside of the corner), so any increase in normal frictional potential (ballast) is countered by the increase in lateral forces pushing the car off of the track due to the higher mass. Aero downforce works to your benefit in the normal plane but has no penalty of increased radial loads. A heavier driver would need an advantage in downforce to overcome the disadvantage of greater mass. Lighter is faster everywhere except at highly banked ovals where aero limits the top speed and weight doesn't matter. Then there is the technobits about traction being a rubber compound sheer stress problem, not a simple static or sliding friction problem. Then too, higher weight is harder on the brakes and the tires to boot. Enough?
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Old 06-14-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

I can only add that he most important muscle to excercise and use in racing, like all things in life, is your BRAIN!
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Old 06-15-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by LimeRockRacer
I can only add that he most important muscle to excercise and use in racing, like all things in life, is your BRAIN!
Even in the famous chess match on Seinfeld, the Brain won over that other "helmeted" appendage. I took great comfort in that, but the question that has always haunted me is-- was the match fixed? After all, the appendage in question did get quite a great deal of satisfaction before being forced to submit...
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Old 06-15-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso
Geez, where to start..."no" is the short answer. ... The heavier driver exerts greater loads in two planes when cornering, both normal (same direction as gravity) and radial (centrifugal, toward the outside of the corner) .... Aero downforce works to your benefit in the normal plane but has no penalty of increased radial loads. ... Then there is the technobits about traction being a rubber compound sheer stress problem, not a simple static or sliding friction problem. Then too, higher weight is harder on the brakes and the tires to boot. Enough?
Yep, and your initial point about radial load is what I surmised to be the case, but I wanted confirmation from someone skilled in this area. Thanks for taking the time to give this concise explanation.
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  #18  
Old 06-15-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Harsha,

I am so glad we don't share cars! I would hate to think what you were excercising while griding!
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Old 06-16-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

I put all of my racing gear on (including helmet). Sit in a sauna while alternating between squats and buttocks flexing. All the while sucking on helium.

Marc
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Old 06-17-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by LimeRockRacer
Harsha, I am so glad we don't share cars! I would hate to think what you were excercising while griding!
Despite my youthful enthusiasm and boyish charm, I would like to remind you that I am older than you. At this stage of the game, the Brain has less and less competition every day (dammit!).

Go pick on CobraZb, he's 24. (dammit!)

Besides, I told Bob Ziegel I was "visualizing."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc998M
I put all of my racing gear on (including helmet). Sit in a sauna while alternating between squats and buttocks flexing. All the while sucking on helium. Marc
I believe you misunderstood the thread, Marc. We want to know what you do OUT of the car.
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Last edited by sydude; 06-18-2007 at 11:40 AM.
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  #21  
Old 08-16-2007
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Racing workout

Buy a 125 shifter kart. If you can drive it flat out for 15 straight minutes without breathing hard, you need not read further. You are already a stud.

If not, drive it 30 minutes a day, 3 times a week. At the end of the first day you will know every muscle that needs work. Take a few days (or weeks, as the Kasey, er, case, may be ) (I shouldn't do that to him, he's away on vacation and powerless to respond) to heal. Then get back to it. After 3 months your core will be stronger than Arnold's and you WILL be a stud. And the Skippy car will feel WAY slow.
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Old 08-16-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

In February of this year, I did a full day of 125cc shifter karting at the Phoenix kart track. Keep in mind I had not been in a kart since August the year before. Not sure what I was thinking. Great track if you can make it out there. Then I went to dinner with customers. They were laughing at me. I could not hold my head up and my hands were shaking so bad that I could not eat.

Harsha,

When are you coming up to Mid-Ohio? We could run down to Lawrenceburg, Indiana for some indoor karting. Not sure if there is anything closer. There was Speeds in Columbus but I believe that is closed to relocate.

Marc
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Old 08-16-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc998M
Harsha, When are you coming up to Mid-Ohio? We could run down to Lawrenceburg, Indiana for some indoor karting. Not sure if there is anything closer. There was Speeds in Columbus but I believe that is closed to relocate. Marc
Boy, that's the wrong direction for you, isn't it? Aren't you in Cleveland? Nothing there?

I'll be driving up from Lexington Monday night to stop and take care of some business in Cinci Tues on the way up. Scheduled for lapping and Lead-Follow on Wed. Need to learn the track (you know me, love to drive). What did you have in mind? Shoot me a Private Message.
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Old 08-16-2007
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc998M
Harsha,

When are you coming up to Mid-Ohio? We could run down to Lawrenceburg, Indiana for some indoor karting.

Marc
Lawrenceburg? Yeow, that's a long haul for one karting night. You two drive all the way to Lawrenceburg from MO, you should play in the dirt!
http://www.lawrenceburgspeedway.com/track_history.php

Hard to tell how much mischief I've been in there in ze alt dayz. Crewed a sprinter there for a while. One night the driver wadded the thing up in a ball between one and two, but walked away uninjured. The car owner, a guy who was always wound a bit too tight, walked up, kicked the John Wayne crap out of the wreck and broke his foot.

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Old 03-19-2010
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by WatertownNewbie View Post
My reply is designed to entice Rosso into some engineering analysis. The 220 pounder also adds some ballast that is the equivalent of some wing going into and through corners -- how much wing and how much more than a 160 pounder is the question.

Can a heavier driver actually go a bit faster through a corner? It seems intuitive that when applying the pedal on the way out of a corner, the lighter drivers have an advantage. But if the heavier driver can exploit the extra load on the tires and maintain more speed into and through the corner, then the average speed difference from turn-in to track-out between a lighter and heavier driver can be reduced. And especially if the heavier driver can maintain higher rpms and get on power a tad earlier, then the key factor of speed onto the following straight is not tipped so much in favor of the lighter driver.

Rosso? Anybody else?
I know what lines you're thinking along, but you've got just a bit mixed around. Think of it this way: A 1000lb car can go through a corner much faster than a 2000lb car correct? A heavier driver will make you corner slower AND accelerate slower.

When you try equating it to a wing is where you're understanding drops off. You see a wing adds "weight" without adding mass.
Not to mention if you are to graph a tires grip is can produce against the load on the tire you would not get a linear function, it's more of an exponential decay. A rough example is a tire with 150 lbs on it can generate 140 lbs cornering force, while that same tire with 300 lbs on it will only generate a 250 lbs cornering force. 140x2=280 which is much greater than 250.

oh and as far as a racing workout: one thing I've started doing that seems to make a difference is to take a 10 or 20 lb plate (what you would put a benchpress bar) and hold it just like a steering wheel. Basically steer all the way to the rack stops on the left and then right, and do it as fast as possible. People in the gym give me weird looks but I swear it has helped me recover from some slides I wouldn't have been able to if I hadn't been doing this. I swear this even gives me a cardio workout if you do it at the end of your lifting routine.

Another variation is to do it with a 10 lb dumb bell in each hand... helps with stabilizing a little more.
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  #26  
Old 03-19-2010
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Re: Racing Workout

Nice explanation on the cornering issue... and I like you're creative weight training solution which, if it catches on would answer the question... "Who among us are Skip Barber people?" when at the gym.

I'm picturing work out classes filled with people holding 10 pound bar bell plates in stiff armed Nuvolari driving position doing opposite lock exercises in unison. Then right foot toe points with five pounders strapped to their foot and finally a series of quick brake stomps and nuanced lifts and touches back and forth between brake and gas to fine tune those muscles. There could be a fit TV video in this.
Kidding of course but nothing bad about conditioning those muscles. Good stuff.
Quote:
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oh and as far as a racing workout: one thing I've started doing that seems to make a difference is to take a 10 or 20 lb plate (what you would put a benchpress bar) and hold it just like a steering wheel. Basically steer all the way to the rack stops on the left and then right, and do it as fast as possible. People in the gym give me weird looks but I swear it has helped me recover from some slides I wouldn't have been able to if I hadn't been doing this. I swear this even gives me a cardio workout if you do it at the end of your lifting routine.

Another variation is to do it with a 10 lb dumb bell in each hand... helps with stabilizing a little more.
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  #27  
Old 03-19-2010
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Re: Racing Workout

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Originally Posted by OLDMAN View Post
There are a couple of "muscles" that are known to disappear going into fast corners and areas with no runoff. Unfortunately I don't know how to make them either stronger or bigger. Some days they need to be the size of oranges!

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Old 03-19-2010
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Re: Racing Workout

the cornering weight issue is interesting. i wish you to consider the following. a few years ago we noticed that some heavier guys (hilmer was one of those) were much quicker at full course road america than expected in the masters series. a review of data showed (i'm not sure this was charlie, it might have been brian sheperd, it might have been someone else, don't remember) showed that midcorner speed in turn one and turn 7 were faster than the other historically faster drivers. with the springs used, the resting ride height was lower. Divi, i recall vividly declared that the ride height reduction was allowing those guys to go thru the turns faster than the lighter guys, with the more compessible springs. I never believed it, but it made me wonder. Clearly, less wieght is better, but at higher speed corners it seemed conceivable that one might actually carry more speed thru the corner with more traction due to ground effect of lower ride height and a higher speed if the ride height were the actual answer. I find it hard to believe, but guys were faster and questions were being asked.
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Old 03-19-2010
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Re: Racing Workout

and as i ponder this, and other racing issues of concern, and as I review the autoracing1.com website, every day, and the team juicy site, every day, (actually usually 2 or 3 times each day), i catch myself wondering about these things, these "important" things. and it reminds me of the movie Patton and the George Patton quote..... "God help me, I love it so."
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Old 03-19-2010
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Re: Racing Workout

Or as Alec Bladwin so eloquently put it on a promo for "The Marriage Ref" recently. "You don't have to make your wife the most important thing in your life... You just have to make her think she's the most important thing in your life."

Quote:
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and as i ponder this, and other racing issues of concern, and as I review the autoracing1.com website, every day, and the team juicy site, every day, (actually usually 2 or 3 times each day), i catch myself wondering about these things, these "important" things. and it reminds me of the movie Patton and the George Patton quote..... "God help me, I love it so."
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  #31  
Old 03-22-2010
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Edwards View Post
the cornering weight issue is interesting. i wish you to consider the following. a few years ago we noticed that some heavier guys (hilmer was one of those) were much quicker at full course road america than expected in the masters series. a review of data showed (i'm not sure this was charlie, it might have been brian sheperd, it might have been someone else, don't remember) showed that midcorner speed in turn one and turn 7 were faster than the other historically faster drivers. with the springs used, the resting ride height was lower. Divi, i recall vividly declared that the ride height reduction was allowing those guys to go thru the turns faster than the lighter guys, with the more compessible springs. I never believed it, but it made me wonder. Clearly, less wieght is better, but at higher speed corners it seemed conceivable that one might actually carry more speed thru the corner with more traction due to ground effect of lower ride height and a higher speed if the ride height were the actual answer. I find it hard to believe, but guys were faster and questions were being asked.
Thats gad damn hilarious... possibly changed the roll centers as well which can make a huge difference for the ultra short linkages on the sb2000 (i assume).
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  #32  
Old 12-25-2010
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Re: Racing Workout

CobraZb,

Where are you from? In addition to my racing background I also happen to be a certified fitness trainer. If you're ever interested in designing a program for racing let me know. In short, racing is a full body workout! A solid cardiovascular program is a must. Medium weights and medium repetitions of an exercise is what your looking for to ensure you challenge your type 1 and type 2 muscle fibers. (Stabilization as well as strength). Eventually after a nice fitness base is established power training enters the picture, which is how fast the muscle is contracted and it's force output. There's lots of variables that go into this when designing a program. If you have any more specific questions let me know.
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  #33  
Old 01-21-2011
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Re: Racing Workout

Great thread. My trainer has me on a program to develop cardiovascular fitness and core strength, but I am going to supplement now with some vigorous karting sessions to figure out where I need work!
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Old 01-23-2011
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Re: Racing Workout

This is a great thread..Driving a 125 Shifter kart for a workout is not only fun but a great workout..Every week I drive down to Homestead and drive a 125 shifter and alternate with a Rotax. I'll do 20 laps in the shifter and take a short break, then 20 laps in the Rotax, The shifter is much more intense, but the Rotax is a completely different driving style, so it's good practice for me to quickly shift mentally to the other style. It is more difficult I think to drive a Rotax fast and it is less forgiving to over-driving. I do this for about 3 hours..Sometimes I'll put very sticky new tires on the front and hard tires on the rear..This gives the kart unbelievable front grip relative to the rear and is another good mental exercise, plus it's fun. If it's raining, then I can go all day.. Less g's..In the rain, sometimes I'll stay on slicks as long as I can, then switch to rains when the big puddles develop. I also race the Rotax sometimes..It's very intense and good practice.,

The other thing I have taken up lately is mountain biking..I used to race motocross as a kid so it was not a hard transition. Its a great cardio workout, plus you have to be 100% focused 100% of the time..In Florida we don't have mountains, but we have trails with hills and man made obstacles.Roots, logs ect. .One lap is 8-10 miles..My heart rate really varies up and down so its like 1 hour interval session or a race car stint...I chased Ozz around a Miami mountain bike park for three laps( about an hour per lap) with a 10 minute break between laps and was dead for a week.

I also go road biking once or twice a week for a 40 mile ride..This is just constant cardio and mentally pretty relaxing.,Builds up a good aerobic base,

In between I do weight training and core body stuff..I do high reps, three sets of 15, as I don't want to build big muscle. Plus a lot of core training.

Also, don't forget to take a day off and relax for a day a week..
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Old 01-23-2011
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Re: Racing Workout

Whoa... Out of breath just reading this John.

Thanks for showing us the level of training required to keep an athletic edge in Grand Am DP racing.
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Old 01-23-2011
Sage Sage is offline
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Re: Racing Workout

From November to March I compete in wrestling six days a week. From the end of March until the end of October my dad trains me with swimming about a mile 3-4 times a week and strength training (four days a week) with reps in the 12 range for 3 to 5 sets. This keeps me pretty lean and my conditioning pretty good too. I know wrestling isn't for everybody but it is an awesome workout.

Sometimes we bike instead of swim.

Sage
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Old 01-23-2011
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage View Post
I know wrestling isn't for everybody
Sage

Is better to have wrestled and lost than to play just about any other sport! Well, except for this racing thing.
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Old 01-23-2011
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Re: Racing Workout

If you'd like to wrestle and lose I suggest Al Carter.
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Originally Posted by jcraige View Post
Is better to have wrestled and lost than to play just about any other sport! Well, except for this racing thing.
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Old 01-23-2011
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Re: Racing Workout

Quote:
Originally Posted by jp56 View Post
This is a great thread..Driving a 125 Shifter kart for a workout is not only fun but a great workout..Every week I drive down to Homestead and drive a 125 shifter and alternate with a Rotax. I'll do 20 laps in the shifter and take a short break, then 20 laps in the Rotax, The shifter is much more intense, but the Rotax is a completely different driving style, so it's good practice for me to quickly shift mentally to the other style. It is more difficult I think to drive a Rotax fast and it is less forgiving to over-driving. I do this for about 3 hours..Sometimes I'll put very sticky new tires on the front and hard tires on the rear..This gives the kart unbelievable front grip relative to the rear and is another good mental exercise, plus it's fun. If it's raining, then I can go all day.. Less g's..In the rain, sometimes I'll stay on slicks as long as I can, then switch to rains when the big puddles develop. I also race the Rotax sometimes..It's very intense and good practice.,

The other thing I have taken up lately is mountain biking..I used to race motocross as a kid so it was not a hard transition. Its a great cardio workout, plus you have to be 100% focused 100% of the time..In Florida we don't have mountains, but we have trails with hills and man made obstacles.Roots, logs ect. .One lap is 8-10 miles..My heart rate really varies up and down so its like 1 hour interval session or a race car stint...I chased Ozz around a Miami mountain bike park for three laps( about an hour per lap) with a 10 minute break between laps and was dead for a week.

I also go road biking once or twice a week for a 40 mile ride..This is just constant cardio and mentally pretty relaxing.,Builds up a good aerobic base,

In between I do weight training and core body stuff..I do high reps, three sets of 15, as I don't want to build big muscle. Plus a lot of core training.

Also, don't forget to take a day off and relax for a day a week..
Just coming back from a 2 hour sesh of carting and my forearms being dead, definitely one of the best ways to work out. Keeps you thinking fast and if your much quicker than other's, you can work your way around the traffic and keep your senses on top notch. I also think mountain biking is an amazing way to get a good workout! Been to some trails in miami and they are allot of fun! Man made roller-coasters (Huge wooden down hill drop with banked turns) def. keep's the adrenaline running and you keep the momentum through the whole trail. With a camel back, i go all day!!
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