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  #1  
Old 11-02-2004
Carlos Carneiro Carlos Carneiro is offline
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Exclamation Read this before you book a seat using racingschools.com

...........



Editor's note:

Carlos of racingschools.com started this thread as an invitation to the 'Indoor Kart World Championship' and followed up with replies to other user's posts. He then chose to delete all of his posts in this thread, which we will respect. I have, however, renamed the thread to the one you see now. There will obviously be missing posts by him in between the ones from Bruce and Pat. I do have all of the posts stored away if you would like to see them.

Last edited by sydude; 11-10-2004 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 11-03-2004
m_motorsports m_motorsports is offline
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Re: Indoor Kart World Championship 2005

Carlos was a brilliant Brazilian driver in our Series He works for Racingschools.com, a company owned by ex- Skip Barber employee, Robert Prevost that we do not do business with... Robert is, in my opinion, an intelligent, successful, manipulative guy who may be morally bankrupt... He has been bad-mouthing Skip Barber for years and proposed to me that he would stop if we did business with his company. When rebuffed, because we felt that this was blackmail, he then flip-flopped and said he would not deal with our present owners.

By his actions Robert has lost the respect of those who value ethics, fair-play and equitable competition. He has betrayed all of us who were his friends and has attempted to put our livelyhood at risk. All for $$$. The bad part is that he thinks all this is OK.

I anyone is curious, call Racingschools.com to see how our constantly-evolving, time-proven curriculum and our older (and extremely wise)instructors are mis-represented...let me know. I wonder how they explain why we have 6 bases and go to over 20 of the greatest tracks if we don't do it well. Carlos, if you could even spell " "MacInnes" I might feel better- You are still AP... Robert- You are what you do.

Last edited by m_motorsports; 11-03-2004 at 03:34 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-03-2004
m_motorsports m_motorsports is offline
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Re: Indoor Kart World Championship 2005

Carlos, you know we still Love you you make us smile ... Good luck with your Karting adventure...

Bruce
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Old 11-03-2004
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Re: Indoor Kart World Championship 2005

After my 3-day last year I investigated other schools and race series. I found the racingschools.com web site and was surprised to find a remarkably negative write up about Skip Barber that didn't come anywhere near my experience of the school. I called racingschools.com and found that they were also very negative on the phone. After a few questions I realized that their lack of support for the Skip Barber program was connected to the fact that Skip Barber wouldn't agree to pay for representation by racingschools.com.

When I saw Carlos' post yesterday I went back onto the racingschools.com web site again and looked up the Skip Barber Racing School. This is what I found as copied directly from their site yesterday:

Begin Quote:

"If you are serious about learning how to road race or if you're looking to fulfill a life long desire to drive Formula or GT race cars on famous circuits nationwide, you'll want to read this information. It will help you identify the schools best suited to meet your particular objectives. Remember, not all schools are the same. The most expensive programs are not necessarily the best so read on and call us if you have any questions.

You've probably heard of the Skip Barber Racing School programs. They've been around since the early 70s but ran into some financial problems in 2001and filed for bankruptcy in early 2002 leaving many customers, employees and vendors with unpaid claims. The name, operations and assets were purchased out of foreclosure in December 2001 by a group of former customers who hope to bring the school back to its former status as a leading provider of road racing programs. For now, the status quo remains.

What you need to know before choosing Skip Barber for a school program:

- They enroll as many as 28 students in a single three day school program. That's more than twice as many students as some other schools.
- You'll always have to share a racecar with one or more student.
- More students may equal less track time.
- No passing is allowed during the entire length of the curriculum.
- No full, uninterrupted laps on the track until the final day.
- No data acquisition is used at anytime during the initial three days.
- Their three day school price can be as much as 50% higher than other schools. Peak time programs at Laguna Seca or Lime Rock Park cost as much as $3,595!

Now compare that to the average three-day school price of other reputable operators at around $2,675 with some great schools offering their three day programs as low as $2,345. That's a huge difference and a higher price won't get you more track time or better race cars or better instruction no matter what the claims. As an independent racing school program sales agent, we believe that the best programs enroll no more than 14-20 students, use data acquisition in every race car, don't make you share a car with other students and allow passing and full track laps as early as the morning of the second day.

The best Formula, three-day school programs are currently being offered by the Bertil Roos Racing School in the East ($2,695), Autosport Basi in Montreal, Canada (around $2,175 US), the Derek Daly Academy in Las Vegas ($3,500), the Jim Russell Racing Drivers School ($2,695) near San Francisco or KRC Racing Schools ($2,995) northeast of Los Angeles.

Important Tip: Always ask about racecar damage liability limits. Some schools hold you responsible for as much as $5000 in crash damage while others (like Bertil Roos) have NO crash damage liability during their Three Day school program."

End Quote:

I then called their contact number (yesterday) and Carlos answered. I asked him why I didn't see the Skip Barber School in their preferred listing and he gave a negative opinion on cost, lack of data acquisition and no wings on the school cars. He then asked me where I was calling from and when I said NYC, he recommended the Bertil Roos racing school and race series.
When I asked if he had raced, he did acknowledge that he used to race in the Barber series. He then added "If your really interested in racing then the Skip Barber Race series is much better than the Bertil Roos series because Bertil Roos may have only 5 cars in a race and the competition isn't very good. If you want to go racing, then Skip Barber is the best. (Bertil Roos might not have appreciated Carlos honesty at that moment but I did) When asked, he also acknowledged that Skip Barber had no rep agreement with racingschools.com while Bertil Roos and more than 70 other schools did.

Here is a partial bio from their site about the CEO of the company:

Robert Prevost, Founder, President and CEO of IME Corp. is a veteran race car driver who has driven many different types of race cars over the years including Karts, GT Sportscars, Stockcars and modern day Formula One cars. He spent nearly a decade with the Skip Barber Racing School as their Director of Corporate Sales successfully developing the model for Motorsports based corporate entertainment programs, that has been embraced today by just about every racing school in AmericaÖ

End of bio:

So, Robert was a long time Skip Barber employee and Carlos ran in the Skippy race series, and both now bury the Skip Barber Racing School in negative innuendo at every opportunity (except when Carlos was pressed about the race series) because Skip Barber LLC won't let them undercut the full time service reps who support their families by exclusively selling Skip Barber services.

Carlos sells the services of (by his own claim) over 70 different racing schools at their list price and gets an agreed upon kickback (or more kindly, commission) from each seat he sells. It is probably a fair assumption that many of those other schools arenít big enough to maintain a full time sales staff, so for them, racingschools.com is a cost affective alternative.

But given the option, would you rather have your racing school represented by someone selling school seats on commission from more than 70 different schools, or by someone devoted and educated in the nuance of only your own program?

What seems grossly unethical to me is how racingschools.com presents itself to an unknowing pubic as an impartial information provider, when it clearly has a financially motivated self-serving agenda that is intentionally hidden. Their detailed reviews only give positive information to the schools they make money from. While under the guise of full disclosure, they dump negative innuendo-laden warnings on schools they don't represent. And they do it without ever making the financial connection and its influence on their reporting clear to the public. (Check out the negative piece on their site about the Richard Petty School that also won't give them a rep agreement)

Iím not suggesting that any of the schools they are representing arenít good service providers and I don't begrudge anybody selling a service for an honest fee and providing information to support people in making an educated decision. I do object to grossly biased reporting based on who is lining your pockets, without coming anywhere near telling the truth about it.

So Carlos and Robert, itís nothing personal because I don't know either one of you, but from everything I gather, some of your current practices would be an illustrative and educational negative model in any business school ethics course.

But thatís just my opinion.

Pat Daly

Last edited by dalyduo; 11-03-2004 at 07:55 PM.
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  #5  
Old 11-04-2004
m_motorsports m_motorsports is offline
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Re: Indoor Kart World Championship 2005

Thank you, Pat.... It appears that their printed material does significantly misrepresent our program... especially regarding no passing, peak pricing, ect. Those of you that have done our school know that we progressively start to unlimit speed before lunch on the 2nd day. I have brought this to the attention of the powers that be here at world headquarters who plan to take a hard look at not just the specific issues, but also the legality of the negative innuendo based solely upon greed.

Bruce
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Old 11-04-2004
m_motorsports m_motorsports is offline
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Re: Indoor Kart World Championship 2005

Carlos,

No point in prolonging the agony regarding all this. I promised Sid that today would be the end of this thread... Please re-check the details on our site regarding prices, passing, crash liability (we resent the innuendo that we charge Three Day customers for crash damage), ect. and contact me at 1-800-229-9593 ext.270 if you need clairification on any of our programs. At present, you web-site does misrepresent these issues regarding The Best Racing School in the world...

I personally wish we could all get along -

Bruce
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  #7  
Old 11-06-2004
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Re: Indoor Kart World Championship 2005

Before we nail the coffin closed on this baby, one last thought:

I find this quote noteworthy:

Carlos Quote #1:

"Though the comparative marketing approach Racingschools.com uses on it's website towards its main competitors (Petty and Barber) is quite aggressive, it is just true information. I personally would probably not chose to display and word it in the manner it is, but that is not my department, or decision. Petty and Barber have literally threatened us, in an attempt to have that removed, but it is my understanding that they have no recourse since it is just true info. It is my understanding that R.Prevost is perfectly open and willing to change any info that may be incorrect, as the intent is certainly no to post incorrect information."

End Quote:

He positions racingschools.com as the victim of Barber and Petty threats over negative statements that he also later admits only exist to hurt business for them! Wouldn't you expect Barber and Petty to look for recourse against unprovoked negative attacks like that?

What I find interesting here is the unwritten message that they don't consider themselves to simply be agents or brokers for racing schools that choose to work with them. They consider themselves to be de-facto master agents of the racing school universe, and anyone who doesn't see it that way had better prepare to be pissed on by them as punishment. Very classy. My question is... Who died and made them god of the racing school universe?

Racingschools.com isn't a racing school with a big investment of money, equipment and people all working their tails off to survive. It's a service business that makes its living off of the hard work of those who do put themselves at risk. I'd be appalled as a racing school to be represented by a broker who did business this way.

Carlos goes on to admit (rather arrogantly) that if their "competitors" were smart enough to stop holding exclusivity on the services they sell, racingschools.com wouldn't have to put so much energy into steering people away from them with their bogus negative innuendo "facts". In fact he even admits that if he could start having commissions for selling Skip Barber services again, all the negative stuff would simply go away! (see quote below)

Carlos quote #2:

"Again the best solution, which I'm sure anyone with half a business brain would agree, is that SBR should be an option to be sold at Racingschools.com. The competition for sales between the two companies would seize to exist, and Racingschools.com could start sending SBR more business instead of putting effort in steering it away from SBR. SBR has only to gain with that move: more $$$, more new individual and corporate customers, and the negative info would go away. SBR's current position seems to be more based on stubborness than business sence."

End Quote:

Carlos is confirming that he'd love to be representing Skip Barber services now, and racingschools.com isn't fair to Skip Barber on their web site because they consider them a "competitor." Wow! How wonderfully honest and damning at the same time. No conscience, no shame.

Perhaps the Skip Barber "stubborness" he refers to is more linked to SB not wanting to be associated with a business lacking any moral conscience or business ethics.

When Carlos revealed that they used to sell Barber services and lost money when the company went bankrupt I first thought, Ah Hah! Here's an understandable reason why these people have been grinding the negative axe. But that's not the case.

They put out negative garbage on any racing school that won't sign an agreement to pay them a commission as a matter of policy. And if they do that to the biggest most successful names in the business, what do you suppose they do with the little guys who don't have much leverage when they approach them to negotiate terms and sign an agreement?

It all smells like a bad low stakes episode of Arliss.

My only axe to grind here is that I've been around agents all my professional life and recognize the difference between the majority that have a moral and ethical conscience guiding them to do the right thing, and the minority whose hungar for power and money override morals and ethics. In my book, lifes too short to hang with people you can't trust.

We all have a choice about who we want to be and who we want to play with.

I don't know Carlos and Robert at all and only wish them well. I'm also not employed by Skip Barber or have any authority to represent them in any capacity. But, if I got to play Skip Barber LLC for a day, my response to racingschools.com would be, "Don't smile and tell me we should be business partners and you'd like to enjoy a piece of my profits representing the longest running most successful brand name racing school in the business, while your pissing on my leg."

Last edited by dalyduo; 11-07-2004 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 11-08-2004
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Re: Indoor Kart World Championship 2005

This is interesting...
Carlos seems to have removed all of his posts, and gone home.
Ah well...

Here is his last post and my response to it.

Hello dalyduo,

Carlos Carneiro has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Indoor Kart World Championship 2005 - in the Skip Barber Racing Series Discussions forum of Team Juicy Racing - Skip Barber Racing Series Forums.

This thread is located at:
http://www.teamjuicyracing.com/forum...0&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Arrogant, unethical, shameless, etc... in the end its all a matter of opinion which will depend greatly on what side of the fence one is in. I dont expect anyone in this forum to necessarily agree with me, as I am wearing red in a sea of people wearing blue...

Good Ol' Bruce MacInnes' comment sounds pretty arrogant to me, considering he probably has not taken any racing school program other than Barber's in ages (if he ever did) to be able to know if Barber is or not in fact, the "World's Best Racing School" or currently has the best school programs. But I would never hold that against him because thats just the kind of person a company needs working for them (someone who firmly believes in their product/service). Bruce not only wears the hat, but I would not be surprised if his underwear also has an embroidered Skippy patch. Personally I always thought Bruce was more worthy of the Skip Barber name than Skip himself. He's a great guy.

DalyDuo's pee on the leg comment reminds me of one of Bruce's many famous quotes during racing schools in which he was instructing. I dont exactly remember how it goes, but it made a reference to one "being deserving of a Golden Shower Award for not making the smart move"...

ESPN Russell (another self-proclaimed World's Best Racing School) used to have their negative aspects posted on our site just like Barber, but they eventually saw the light, joined the sales network and cant believe why it took them so long to have us working with them, as opposed to against them. Their leg is now dry and looking quite attractive.

Like Bruce said, it would be great if we could all get along.
But business is competition, and unless we can be allies, we will be "racing for sales" as rivals, rather than teammates.

I guess I'm setting myself up for another reply about Racingschools.com's ethics, arrogance, & etc... but as you probably noticed by now, it does not affect or offend me as I just have a completely different perspective on the issue.

BTW, Bruce, call Robert if you want to discuss any Barber info that may no longer be factual, to be changed on that page . 1-877-463-7223 x203


Carlos,

My objective was never defending Skip Barber or Bruce McInnes (They both take care of themselves quite nicely) My objective was to have you reveal the mind set of an unethical business practitioner for our readers.

Your clarified devotion to the unethical practices of racingschools.com has illustrated my point wonderfully.

Thanks for your time.

Pat

Last edited by dalyduo; 11-08-2004 at 10:38 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-08-2004
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Re: Indoor Kart World Championship 2005

Hmmm. Interesting. I wonder why he did that. I certainly don't want to advertise their company, so I think I should just bury this thread now. I still have all of his posts, so I guess I could resurrect them and leave it as a memorial to his company.

Last edited by sydude; 11-08-2004 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 11-08-2004
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Re: Indoor Kart World Championship 2005

Unlike what racingschools.com practices, I wouldn't shade or change a word of this thread. Just rename the thread, "What you need to know before you book a seat through racingschools.com".

The fact that he pulled his posts and ran away, along with the content of this thread, speaks for itself.

Last edited by dalyduo; 11-09-2004 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 11-10-2004
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Re: Read this before you book a seat using racingschools.com

Wow, a voice from the past. I can't belive this is still going on or that guy is still in business. He has been trashing SB for years. I never trust anyone that has to trash the competition to sell his product.

Bruce, one of my first Skippy instructors, you are great.
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Old 11-10-2004
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Re: Read this before you book a seat using racingschools.com

Having been associated/racing with SB, for 10 years......and having raced in other series........SB is clearly the best of the best, from the instructors, staff in the office, mechanics, and all the racers..........no other series or racing school could compare. Sure there are aspects of the organization that could be improved.........what business is perfect?......but at the end of the day, there are more positives, than negatives........and therefore should be judged by total picture. As for all the negative comments at Racingschools.com.........it's pretty apparent that the individuals there have their own agenda........and are very biased in their remarks towards SB.........which completely undermines their validity of their opinion. Anyhow after all these years i have met very few drivers, who didn't want to be at the next race weekend!
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Old 11-10-2004
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Re: Read this before you book a seat using racingschools.com

This tread reminds me of the years I spent in the Corps Ė you could piss all over the Corps because you were in the Corps, but let someone outside the Corps utter just one negative syllable, and well then you would simply have to pull their tongue out of their mouth with a pair of pliers, wire cutters worked pretty well to. See, Skippy, even though we ďpiss all over youĒ at times, that doesnít mean we donít love you. Iíve got the pliers, letís go find Carlos and this Roberto guy. OOOHHHRAH
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Old 10-07-2014
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Re: Read this before you book a seat using racingschools.com

Robert was talking to several people while wearing SBRS Racing shoes and a white polo at Road America this past weekend. What's that all about? Especially considering this
Seeing all of the above after a search, I'm certainly curious whether Pat recognized him or had any words.
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Old 10-07-2014
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Re: Read this before you book a seat using racingschools.com

Hi Trevor,

In the Road America crew listing I noticed this:

MARKETING: Robert Prevost
Marketing will be taking pictures, and tweeting as it all happens throughout the weekend. Smile for the camera!

Never saw Robert take any pictures until it was pointed out to him that he was supposed to be taking podium pictures. He pulled out his iPhone and took the required shots. I'm not on twitter so don't know how he faired with the twits.

Robert sat opposite me at dinner one night and asked what I'd think about having a Formula One car driving experience. I explained to him that because my joy came from the pursuit of craft in a race car, a one off "Experience" where I'd never approach the limits of the car or even get its brakes warm held little interest. It wasn't clear if he was suggesting Skip Barber should become associated with this kind of endeavor or he was suggesting I contract for the service through him. Either way I found it odd for the new Skip Barber marketing guy to be bringing up a formula one experience when we have so many bigger issues to overcome.

I knew who Robert was but didn't bring up my back and forth with Carlos about the ethics of their bad mouthing any racing school that wouldn't undercut their sales force with his web marketing because it happened 10 years ago.

In reading back over these posts, none of my opinions have changed about what they did or how they did it. I never met or spoke with Robert back then but he likely told Carlos to remove his posts because they clearly illustrated the unethical practices they were living by at the time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Magical Trevor View Post
Robert was talking to several people while wearing SBRS Racing shoes and a white polo at Road America this past weekend. What's that all about? Especially considering this
Seeing all of the above after a search, I'm certainly curious whether Pat recognized him or had any words.
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Last edited by dalyduo; 10-12-2014 at 07:47 PM.
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