Team Juicy Racing's Racing School and Race Series Forums
Go Back   Team Juicy Racing's Racing School and Race Series Forums > Racing Schools & Race Series Forums > Race Series Discussions
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-07-2006
Gerardo's Avatar
Gerardo Gerardo is offline
Irrational National
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 640

Gallery Images: 815
Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

It's not what you think! Read on.

Welcome to the New Skippy Car Components Survey #7 of 8, presented by Sy and myself. This week's topic is GEARBOX. Let's get right to it.

The debate on Sequential vs H-Pattern has been done on a previous thread.
http://www.teamjuicyracing.com/forum...ead.php?t=1630

In this thread, we'll discuss other gearbox related topics.

As with previous solicitations for feedback, lets keep a nice balance of positive and negative comments. Thanks so much!


2007 Skippy Car Survey #7 of 8 - Gearbox

1. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, how many gears would you choose to install if you could decide? 4, 5, or 6?

2. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have "no-lift shift" where you could keep your foot flat on the gas as you upshift? Consider such a device may add complexity when weighing the benefits.

3. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have a gear position indicator on the dashboard (assuming a digital dash)?

4. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, should the dashboard tell you when to upshift by the RPM reading, or by a series of lights that rise until the shift point, or do you shift by ear or by feel and ignore the dash anyway?

5. Any other comments?

Please use this other thread to debate H-Pattern vs Sequential. http://www.teamjuicyracing.com/forum...ead.php?t=1630 However, if your comments require comparison between the gearbox types, feel free to do it here in the new thread.

This thread will be closed to further replies just before midnight on Monday, November 13th. The next topic will then be introduced.

Thanks again!
__________________
Gerardo Bonilla

Professor of Comedic Slip Angle Use
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-07-2006
dalyduo's Avatar
dalyduo dalyduo is offline
Grand Master
Carbon Fiber Keyboard (3,000+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: location, location
Posts: 5,399

Gallery Images: 112
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

1. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, how many gears would you choose to install if you could decide? 4, 5, or 6?

A 5 speed sequential.

2. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have "no-lift shift" where you could keep your foot flat on the gas as you upshift? Consider such a device may add complexity when weighing the benefits.

If "No-Lift" adds weight, complexity and expense leave in the lift. We're not giving up very much with the lift and since we all have to do it...

3. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have a gear position indicator on the dashboard (assuming a digital dash)?

YES, YES YES!!! Just give us a simple LED that always show's the gear you're in. And while you're at it... Retrofit the R/T's with 'em as well!

4. If the selected transmission is an H-Pattern or Sequential, should the dashboard tell you when to upshift by the RPM reading, or by a series of lights that rise until the shift point, or do you shift by ear or by feel and ignore the dash anyway?

I'll use sound at certain places where I don't want to or can't look down but there must be a tach. Could be a digital read out or dial... digital may be easier to site but don't know first hand. Progressive LED's for upshifts are a really good thing too. They confirm visually what you hear with the engine noise or see on the tach. A good thing for newbies and when under extreme heat of battle.
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-08-2006
gman's Avatar
gman gman is offline
Podium Regular / Advanced Member (50+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: miami beach
Posts: 68
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

1. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, how many gears would you choose to install if you could decide? 4, 5, or 6?
6 Sequential

2. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have "no-lift shift" where you could keep your foot flat on the gas as you upshift? Consider such a device may add complexity when weighing the benefits.
My vote is for what is simple to maintain and lower in cost (whatever it is).

3. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have a gear position indicator on the dashboard (assuming a digital dash)?
Yes, I would like a gear indicator and think it would very useful to know exactly what gear we are in. Especially if we go to 6 gears.

4. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, should the dashboard tell you when to upshift by the RPM reading, or by a series of lights that rise until the shift point, or do you shift by ear or by feel and ignore the dash anyway?
I drive moslty by ear/feel (b/c I usually can't see the gauges). I would like a better visual system for reading the tach and using different colors/lights to identify RPM's would be very useful. I would prefer a system w/ a series of lights indicating RPM range rather then just 1 upshift indicator.

5. Any other comments?
I like information. Whatever can be done to provide greater input in an easy to understand/evaluate format would be benificial. I can understand why it would be easier to glance down at a series of lights and quickly identify it - much like a graph represents data.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-08-2006
Vin's Avatar
Vin Vin is offline
Lost In Asia
Podium Regular / Advanced Member (50+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Zhuhai, China
Posts: 50

Gallery Images: 23
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

1. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, how many gears would you choose to install if you could decide? 4, 5, or 6?

I'd choose a 5 or 6 speed Sequential. Reason being for reliability and cost. Sure, a Sequential may cost more up front, but they are stronger in that worn out dog rings will still work in a Sequential, while it won't work in a H-Pattern. Plus, people will not be able to over-rev the motor with a 4th to 3rd UP-Shift. Plus, most modern race cars use sequential now, so there is no need to learn how to use a H-Pattern. Sequential are easier, and lets beginners get right to the driving, instead of spending any time learning how to shift properly.

2. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have "no-lift shift" where you could keep your foot flat on the gas as you upshift? Consider such a device may add complexity when weighing the benefits.

No "no-lift shift." It's nice, but just adds one more thing that could break, and a little more cost. Of course, with the Sadev Formula Renault gear boxes with the "no-lift shift" I've never seen a problem.

3. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have a gear position indicator on the dashboard (assuming a digital dash)?

Yes, for a 6 speed, not really necessary for a 5 speed. Although it adds cost, it's nice for beginners so they can focus on their driving, and not keep "counting" gears.

4. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, should the dashboard tell you when to upshift by the RPM reading, or by a series of lights that rise until the shift point, or do you shift by ear or by feel and ignore the dash anyway?

On the R/T 2000 I was shifting more on feel and sound, seems like the Tachs on all the cars were off by a bit. On the Formula Renault, we need to shift right before the Rev-Limit, so I use the digital read out or the LEDs. If the dash tach is easy enough to read, you don't need the LEDs. But if the tach is difficult to read, I'd say use LEDs. Use which ever system is cheaper I'd say, easy to read tach without LED, or hard to read tach with LED.

5. Any other comments?

There are some nice gearboxes out there already, like the 6-Speed sequential Hewland F-3 gearbox, or the indestructible 6-Speed Sequential Formula Renault Sadev. Might be cheaper to just use one of these, instead of designing a custom box. These have been around for years, and although they may be expensive at first, they are already tested, proven and VERY strong.

Have a happy. . .
Vinay
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-08-2006
OLDMAN's Avatar
OLDMAN OLDMAN is offline
GrandMasterB
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Southern Connecticut
Age: 77
Posts: 466

Gallery Images: 57
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Keep it the way it is, no bells no whistles.

OLDMAN
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-08-2006
Moxie's Avatar
Moxie Moxie is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 200

Gallery Images: 482
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Interesting questions. Overall, everything about the car is a cost versus benefit issue. Since we're responding to these questions without detailed information about incremental costs, I'm going to assume that the financial impact of the alternatives Gerardo puts forward are not extreme -- for example, that going for a 6-speed tranny versus a 5-speed doesn't increase the production cost by more than 20-25%.

Also, my perspective is that a big part of the core appeal of SBRS Formula Dodge is emphasis on driver skills over preparation or equipment advantages. In most amateur racing series, a bigger budget buys you significantly better equipment and support, which clearly can affect the outcome to a greater degree than at SBRS.

Accordingly ...

1. I'd favor a 6-speed because it gives the driver more choices (and challenges), thereby rewarding the drivers who make better/more skillful choices.

2. I would not support "no-lift shift" because it removes an element of driver skill required to extract the most performance from the car.

3. Again assuming nominal additional cost, I would support a gear indicator on the dash for a 6-speed. I agree it probably isn't necessary for a 5-speed.

4. I have found the shift lights in the computer car most helpful and would favor them in the series cars as well.

5. A couple of questions back to you, Gerardo. What is the tranny's share of the total cost of the car? Is it a major maintenance item for the mechanics, versus the engine or the suspension, or not so much? Is the decision to go from 5 speeds to 6 a major financial impact, in terms of initial cost and maintenance, or not?

BTW thanks for doing this series of Q&As, it's really interesting and certainly increases my interest in the new car!
__________________
"If you feel like it's all under control, you're not going fast enough." -- Mario Andretti
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-08-2006
AlDelattre AlDelattre is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seat 2B
Posts: 161
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalyduo
1. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, how many gears would you choose to install if you could decide? 4, 5, or 6?

A 5 speed sequential.

2. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have "no-lift shift" where you could keep your foot flat on the gas as you upshift? Consider such a device may add complexity when weighing the benefits.

If "No-Lift" adds weight, complexity and expense leave in the lift. We're not giving up very much with the lift and since we all have to do it...

3. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have a gear position indicator on the dashboard (assuming a digital dash)?

YES, YES YES!!! Just give us a simple LED that always show's the gear you're in. And while you're at it... Retrofit the R/T's with 'em as well!

4. If the selected transmission is an H-Pattern or Sequential, should the dashboard tell you when to upshift by the RPM reading, or by a series of lights that rise until the shift point, or do you shift by ear or by feel and ignore the dash anyway?

I'll use sound at certain places where I don't want to or can't look down but there must be a tach. Could be a digital read out or dial... digital may be easier to site but don't know first hand. Progressive LED's for upshifts are a really good thing too. They confirm visually what you hear with the engine noise or see on the tach. A good thing for newbies and when under extreme heat of battle.
Quite Simply, Pat nailed it. I agree with him on all points.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-08-2006
sydude's Avatar
sydude sydude is offline
Team OC/AD D
Carbon Fiber Keyboard (3,000+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: New York
Age: 53
Posts: 3,311

Gallery Images: 1995
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

For me, the biggest problem that needs to be addressed is to get rid of the inacurracy of the analog tachs. From my experience, there can be a variation of +/-200 rpm from actual. Everytime I get into a car I rev the motor till it bumps the limiter and note the reading on the tach, and then I have to factor that for the measurements I make during the rest of the run. I don't know how many people do this, but those that don't may not be shifting at the optimal rpm, and they may be getting inaccurate exit rpm readings as well.

I'm thinking/hoping that we're going to get a digital dash/gauge cluster standard with the new car, and that it would naturally be tied to the new engine's ECU/DME. If that's the case, then we should have accurate RPM data. And then it would be easy to do a digital gear position indicator, plus the christmas tree shift lights.



HOT.

Last edited by sydude; 11-08-2006 at 06:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-08-2006
dalyduo's Avatar
dalyduo dalyduo is offline
Grand Master
Carbon Fiber Keyboard (3,000+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: location, location
Posts: 5,399

Gallery Images: 112
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Sy,

You're telling us the rev limiter is hard wired for a specific default RPM number that we can calibrate back from but didn't mention the number. If I'm going to re-calibrate my shift point using the limiter as the control I want to make sure I know the correct number.

You are also assuming that your inaccurate tach is linear, meaning that if it's off by 200rpm at a true 6,400rpm, it is also off by 200 rpm at a true 4,000rpm. That may not be the case but would be impossible to measure or track without special instruments.

Having said that, your method is a very simple easy way to determine the ballpark amount that your tach may be whack.

Would also only think about touching the limiter momentarily with a thoroughly warmed up motor.

Thanks,
Pat

Quote:
Originally Posted by sydude
From my experience, there can be a variation of +/-200 rpm from actual. Everytime I get into a car I rev the motor till it bumps the limiter and note the reading on the tach, and then I have to factor that for the measurements I make during the rest of the run.
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-08-2006
dlippert's Avatar
dlippert dlippert is offline
Big Dick
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 553
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Ditto Pat's comments
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-08-2006
LimeRockRacer's Avatar
LimeRockRacer LimeRockRacer is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 985

Gallery Images: 8
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

-Sequential for sure.
- I do not think 6 speed is necessary over 5.
-No lift is an unnecessary cost and the current set up works just fine.
-It would be nice to have an indicator as to what gear you are in, again as long as it is not adding a cost factor.
-Shift indicator lights are an unnecessary cost and the engine revs and tach provide more than enough feedback as to whether you need to go up or down.
- What about paddle shifters? I am sure they would blow the budget!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-08-2006
Gerardo's Avatar
Gerardo Gerardo is offline
Irrational National
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 640

Gallery Images: 815
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie
A couple of questions back to you, Gerardo. What is the tranny's share of the total cost of the car? Is it a major maintenance item for the mechanics, versus the engine or the suspension, or not so much? Is the decision to go from 5 speeds to 6 a major financial impact, in terms of initial cost and maintenance, or not?
On your questions:
1. The transmission's share of the total cost of the car is unknown to me, but my educated guess is that it is a significant portion of the total cost relative to other components.

2. Is the gearbox a major maintenance item compared to the engine or suspension? On most race cars, yes. On the new car? Our engineers probably have a good idea, but I'm not in the loop, and probably wouldn't say what I know in this forum. Best to speak with the engineers when you are at the track.

3. Is going from 5 to 6 speeds a financial impact? I don't know what the price difference is on a 5 or 6, nor do I know what kind of deal we might get, nor could I tell you if I knew. Sorry, there's so much information that the company considers confidential, and I love my job, so unfortunately, some things I cannot say. But, logically, the 6 probably costs more, not sure how much. As for maintenance costs, I remember paying for gearsets in the Star Mazda car. If there are more in there, more can break.

For me, the question is what do we need to have fun racing with our friends?

Hope that helps.
__________________
Gerardo Bonilla

Professor of Comedic Slip Angle Use
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-08-2006
John Greist's Avatar
John Greist John Greist is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Age: 84
Posts: 608
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

For me, the question is what do we need to have fun racing with our friends?

Had, and still have, at least as much fun with friends racing 4 speed H pattern Hewland's; it is a greater accomplishment to use them well; and they cost less.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-08-2006
PT Cruiser's Avatar
PT Cruiser PT Cruiser is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 241
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

I'm in agreement with Pat, except I don't think the LED shift indicator is all that important. For all but the 4th-5th upshift in the RT/2000, I find it pretty easy to judge the shift by a combination of engine sound and the rate of acceleration of the car. I do tend to look at the tach for the 4th-5th shift because at the top of 4th gear, the rate at which the car's acceleration drops off is more gradual, and thus it's harder to judge exactly when to shift. But the 4th-5th shift almost always occurs well clear of any corner, so there is plenty of time to look at the tach.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-09-2006
sydude's Avatar
sydude sydude is offline
Team OC/AD D
Carbon Fiber Keyboard (3,000+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: New York
Age: 53
Posts: 3,311

Gallery Images: 1995
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalyduo
Sy,

You're telling us the rev limiter is hard wired for a specific default RPM number that we can calibrate back from but didn't mention the number. If I'm going to re-calibrate my shift point using the limiter as the control I want to make sure I know the correct number.

You are also assuming that your inaccurate tach is linear, meaning that if it's off by 200rpm at a true 6,400rpm, it is also off by 200 rpm at a true 4,000rpm. That may not be the case but would be impossible to measure or track without special instruments.
I believe Redline is 6,200 rpm and the optimum shift point for gears 1 to 4 is 5,800 rpm. The optimum shift point for 5th gear is 6,000 rpm or so, due to the taller ratio spread and the resultant drop in revs.

In regards to the assumption that the difference in tach accuracy needs to be linear, it doesn't really matter. The only time you're taking rev data is at the exits of corners, where you should in the gear that gets you as close to the power peak of the motor as possible. And if you are, then it's likely that you're somewhere between 5,000 and 5,800 rpm at the exit point. So when you're relatively close to the original rpm metric, the non-linear variation is proportionately low. Instead of a 200 rpm difference at 5,800 rpm, it would be approximately 172.5 rpm difference at 5,000 rpm.

(please don't check the math - I'm sure I screwed something up..)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-09-2006
dalyduo's Avatar
dalyduo dalyduo is offline
Grand Master
Carbon Fiber Keyboard (3,000+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: location, location
Posts: 5,399

Gallery Images: 112
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

The one grand exception is the 4th to 5th upshift through LRP's downhill. Would love to have progressive led's for that one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PT Cruiser
But the 4th-5th shift almost always occurs well clear of any corner, so there is plenty of time to look at the tach.
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-09-2006
WatertownNewbie's Avatar
WatertownNewbie WatertownNewbie is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Watertown, CT
Posts: 999

Gallery Images: 36
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalyduo
The one grand exception is the 4th to 5th upshift through LRP's downhill. Would love to have progressive led's for that one.
If you upshift at the exit of West Bend, you won't have to worry about it.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-10-2006
birkmama's Avatar
birkmama birkmama is offline
Bavarian Berserk
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 349
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

1. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, how many gears would you choose to install if you could decide? 4, 5, or 6?
It should be a sequential 6-speed. H-patterns are more prone to user error and thus damage increasing the cost base.

I would stronlgy argue that it should be a close ratio box with a super close 6th gear unlike today where the 5th is more of an overdrive.

The benefit of such a ratio would be that you would use 1 through 5 on most tracks but could grab 6th for drafting pops.
2. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have "no-lift shift" where you could keep your foot flat on the gas as you upshift? Consider such a device may add complexity when weighing the benefits.
I am not convinced that it would add either. My understanding is that it is a relatively simple sensor cutting back ignition angle upon pulling the lever. It probably could help wear on the gearbox, too.
3. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have a gear position indicator on the dashboard (assuming a digital dash)?
Vinay is right, no for a 5, yes for a 6-speed.
4. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, should the dashboard tell you when to upshift by the RPM reading, or by a series of lights that rise until the shift point, or do you shift by ear or by feel and ignore the dash anyway?
Did we talk about engines yet? Can't remember. The engine should peak at redline, so a tachometer (digital or analogue) would do. Having a little light flashing at you when you reach it might help focusing on the action ahead - not a biggie imo.

5. Any other comments?

Why not add shift paddles to the equation. My experience is that they improve laptimes and focus as well as car control since you can leave your paws on the wheel.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-10-2006
rf360m rf360m is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 143
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

1. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, how many gears would you choose to install if you could decide? 4, 5, or 6?
I think the current 5 speed sequential is very good. I can't see what adding an extra gear would do except for increasing the cost. I don't think the cars are really powerful enough to need 6 gears.

2. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have "no-lift shift" where you could keep your foot flat on the gas as you upshift? Consider such a device may add complexity when weighing the benefits.
I don't think a no-lift is necessary. The momentary lift we do now is fun anyway, to see how perfect you can get it. A no-lift is probably more expensive anyway?

3. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have a gear position indicator on the dashboard (assuming a digital dash)?
I don't think we need a gear position indicator. The only time I've ever lost track of the gear I was in is if I spun the car. Then after a couple of shifts you realize the gear you are in. I don't think 'okay I'm in 4th for this turn', but rather 'shift up once here, then down twice here, etc' So for that having a gear display wouldn't help.

4. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, should the dashboard tell you when to upshift by the RPM reading, or by a series of lights that rise until the shift point, or do you shift by ear or by feel and ignore the dash anyway?
I ignore the dash for the most part. I glimpse at it to get an idea of the current rmp range, but shift mostly by sound and feel. So having lights to tell me would change much.

5. Any other comments?
All these extras we are discussing, not just in this thread but in the previous ones as well, are great for professional drivers. But as amateurs who do this for fun, and on a budget, I think they are not necessary. A good, safe car, that looks modern, and is fun to drive and inexpensive as possible is what I'm looking for. I don't care if i can save an extra tenth of a second because there are shift lights on the dash, or whatever.

It's a very difficult job that SB has. How do they get more customers, who don't have lots of money, while also keeping the customers who do have lots of money happy?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-10-2006
WatertownNewbie's Avatar
WatertownNewbie WatertownNewbie is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Watertown, CT
Posts: 999

Gallery Images: 36
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

1. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, how many gears would you choose to install if you could decide? 4, 5, or 6?

At Lime Rock, once we are out of the pits, only three different gears are needed, whereas four different ones are used at Road America and all five at Laguna Seca and Mont Tremblant. Perhaps instead of asking for the number of gears, we should think about the spacing (as a couple of other posters have mentioned). I suppose that having different transmissions for different tracks would be too expensive and labor-intensive. Some gear ratio combination that would be appropriate for the variety of tracks that we drive ought to be the goal, be it 4, 5, or 6 gears in all.

2. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have "no-lift shift" where you could keep your foot flat on the gas as you upshift? Consider such a device may add complexity when weighing the benefits.

I do not need a "no-lift", but I would like a "smooth-shift" upshift rather than the sticky, hard-to-get-to-engage 5th gear that I (and others) have experienced on some of the cars. There have been times when I used the clutch to get into 5th gear, when the simple lift would not engage the mechanism, even with a careful loading of the shifter.

3. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have a gear position indicator on the dashboard (assuming a digital dash)?

Probably not, although it is not a bad idea if it is an inexpensive thing to do. It would be nice to know that the car is not in the gear that I think it is in.

4. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, should the dashboard tell you when to upshift by the RPM reading, or by a series of lights that rise until the shift point, or do you shift by ear or by feel and ignore the dash anyway?

I happen to shift mostly by the tach, having been a practitioner of short-shifting early in my career (well, I'm still early in my career, I hope). Given the comments about the inaccuracy of the tachs, however, it would be nice to know an accurate rpm figure so that I am not shifting too early or too late. Flashing lights are not as important as accurate gauges (digital or analog).

5. Any other comments?

Pat Daly's observations in a prior thread got me thinking about how we might be speaking in a vacuum, since we do not know what the differences will be between the R/T 2000 and the future car. If the engine is similar, then that is one thing, but if in fact the cars are so different that we end up finding new brake points, shift points, acceleration points, and so forth, then how can we comment about things like the desired number of gears?
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-11-2006
PT Cruiser's Avatar
PT Cruiser PT Cruiser is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 241
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalyduo
The one grand exception is the 4th to 5th upshift through LRP's downhill. Would love to have progressive led's for that one.
Well, I wouldn't know about that one, since the only time I ever raced at Lime Rock, it rained for every single practice and qualifying session, not to mention both races.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-11-2006
dalyduo's Avatar
dalyduo dalyduo is offline
Grand Master
Carbon Fiber Keyboard (3,000+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: location, location
Posts: 5,399

Gallery Images: 112
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

That was a memorable weekend Peter. 9 inches of rain that week. However, the only thing better than a dry LRP is LRP in the rain! You must come back for a dry weekend though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PT Cruiser
Well, I wouldn't know about that one, since the only time I ever raced at Lime Rock, it rained for every single practice and qualifying session, not to mention both races.
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-14-2006
Moxie's Avatar
Moxie Moxie is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 200

Gallery Images: 482
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Click image for larger version

Name:	2005-1015 LRP3.jpg
Views:	172
Size:	86.8 KB
ID:	1561
Quote:
Originally Posted by PT Cruiser
Well, I wouldn't know about that one, since the only time I ever raced at Lime Rock, it rained for every single practice and qualifying session, not to mention both races.
But you have to admit, racing in the rain provides the opportunity for all kinds of fun that you just don't get when it's dry ... for example ...
__________________
"If you feel like it's all under control, you're not going fast enough." -- Mario Andretti
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-14-2006
GEORGE's Avatar
GEORGE GEORGE is offline
red mist junkie
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: JOHNSTOWN, NY
Age: 68
Posts: 436

Gallery Images: 2
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

I have just a few thoughts about the gearbox;
5 speeds, evenly spaced, so the same rpm range is reached in each gear. Thinking about the gearbox cost and ease of damage; we have to have a sequential.

I know it seems silly but I was caught out once thinking "did I downshift twice or only once ? mmmmmmmm"
Big LURID spin
"I guess I couldn't count to two"

The gearbox we drivers would like; 6speed, sequential, shift lites, gear readout, nolift.
The gearbox we would be happy with, no, thrilled with.
Five speed, sequential, lift and built like a TIMEX.

Of course all the other stuff would be nice, but I really can learn to count
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-16-2006
birkmama's Avatar
birkmama birkmama is offline
Bavarian Berserk
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 349
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Hey where is the next topic. We all have been hangin in there. Let us wrap it up. Motor, right? I want about 500hp so long as it does not cost anything
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-16-2006
dalyduo's Avatar
dalyduo dalyduo is offline
Grand Master
Carbon Fiber Keyboard (3,000+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: location, location
Posts: 5,399

Gallery Images: 112
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Martin,

Perhaps you could arrange for BMW to deliver enough M5 crate motors to supply the new fleet as a corporate donation to drivers education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by birkmama
Hey where is the next topic. We all have been hangin in there. Let us wrap it up. Motor, right? I want about 500hp so long as it does not cost anything
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-17-2006
beracing's Avatar
beracing beracing is offline
Maximizing Exit Speed / Advanced Member (10+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 12
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

1. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, how many gears would you choose to install if you could decide? 4, 5, or 6?

sequential with 5 gears would be suitable for me

2. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have "no-lift shift" where you could keep your foot flat on the gas as you upshift? Consider such a device may add complexity when weighing the benefits.

As much as it would add to complexity, i would like to see "no-lift shift" added to the Skippy Cars.

3. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have a gear position indicator on the dashboard (assuming a digital dash)?

It would be good to have a gear position indicator, although it shouldn't be very hard to figure out where you are, but for new drivers (and veterans) there are always the times you forget

4. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, should the dashboard tell you when to upshift by the RPM reading, or by a series of lights that rise until the shift point, or do you shift by ear or by feel and ignore the dash anyway?

I would use the lights for reference, but I do shift by ear and feel.. atleast on my street Miata, I never watch the RPM's
__________________
"Racing is life, everything before or after is just waiting"
~Steve McQueen from the movie Le Mans
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-17-2006
birkmama's Avatar
birkmama birkmama is offline
Bavarian Berserk
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 349
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalyduo
Martin,

Perhaps you could arrange for BMW to deliver enough M5 crate motors to supply the new fleet as a corporate donation to drivers education.
Oh yeah, we will deliver absolutely no problem. The minor $$ contribution required can be easily absorbed by the overall cost structure of the race car, I assume. Not sure how 500 lbs of engine would feel in the car but it is worth a try.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-17-2006
OLDMAN's Avatar
OLDMAN OLDMAN is offline
GrandMasterB
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Southern Connecticut
Age: 77
Posts: 466

Gallery Images: 57
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

I would be just as happy racing karts up on top.

OLDMAN
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-19-2006
Tom jr Tom jr is offline
Testing Entry Speed / Advanced Member (25+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ma
Posts: 30
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

1) 6 speed sequential
2) current lift ok with me ,
3)gear gadge yes
4) shift light , yes

thanks
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 11-21-2006
Martin Zimmerman Martin Zimmerman is offline
Martin Zimmerman
Testing Entry Speed / Advanced Member (25+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Palatine IL
Age: 67
Posts: 29
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Hi Guys & Gals,

1. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, how many gears would you choose to install if you could decide? 4, 5, or 6?

4 Speeds are plenty. The engines have plenty of torque over a wide rev range.

2. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have "no-lift shift" where you could keep your foot flat on the gas as you upshift? Consider such a device may add complexity when weighing the benefits.

No Benefit. We should be learning how to drive, not taking advantage of all of the Gee-Whiz Systems that are out there.

3. If the selected transmission is a Sequential, should it have a gear position indicator on the dashboard (assuming a digital dash)?

Nope. One should have a good idea of what gear they are in all the time.

4. If the selected transmission is a H-Pattern or Sequential, should the dashboard tell you when to upshift by the RPM reading, or by a series of lights that rise until the shift point, or do you shift by ear or by feel and ignore the dash anyway?

Gear Indicator Lights work. They are a nice feature that is on the Computer Car. Simple to add. Having trouble focusing close any way(it is an Age Thing), nice to see a light, rather than 'read' a tach. If it uses a gauge I just use the proximity of the needle, sound vibration, etc, as opposed to 'Reading' the tach in most cases. On a straightaway, there is plenty of time to look, as opposed to the three-four shift at Corner Seven at Road America. Occasionally one is too busy to 'read' the gauges.

5. Any other comments?

I agree with John Greist, the old H-pattern shift cars were very easy to adjust to and a blast to drive.

However, it seems to me that there are fewer Gearbox Problems once the transition to the sequential shift had been made. Gearbox Problems related to shifters being misadjusted(Manhandled, 'Hey Watch this while I bust up your shifter')

All the best,

Martin
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-21-2006
ML Peter Ludwig's Avatar
ML Peter Ludwig ML Peter Ludwig is offline
Petey's Dad
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: New York
Age: 58
Posts: 268

Gallery Images: 54
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

1. 6 Gear Sequential
2. No lift
3. Digital dash
4. Series of lights that rise until the shift point
5. Push to pass
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-22-2006
rgreist's Avatar
rgreist rgreist is offline
Punisher
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 286
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

5-speed, H-pattern, Hewland.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-22-2006
John Greist's Avatar
John Greist John Greist is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Age: 84
Posts: 608
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Revere's right: 5-Speed, H Pattern, Hewland.

Big step up from the 2 speed in the Kuzma.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-22-2006
cdh's Avatar
cdh cdh is offline
administrationistperson
Carbon Fiber Keyboard (3,000+ Posts)

TJR Forums Contributor / Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 5,546

Gallery Images: 795
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Greist
Revere's right: 5-Speed, H Pattern, Hewland.

Big step up from the 2 speed in the Kuzma.
It would certainly require more skill to be competitive, I would welcome it, but it'll never sell in Peoria.
__________________
.
"Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBE
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-22-2006
Gerardo's Avatar
Gerardo Gerardo is offline
Irrational National
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 640

Gallery Images: 815
Re: Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX

Ah, so I'm about a week late on summarizing this thread, but such is life. At least it gave more of you an opportunity to post more great comments. Thank you all once again for sharing.

Here's what you said:

1. On the Number of Gears, the answers were all over the map. 5-speeds and 6-speeds both got a fair number of votes, while the 4-speed had the fewest votes. "Sequential" was mentioned the most often, although the Greists once again reminded us of how challenging and satisfying a race built H-pattern gearbox is to drive well.

2. On the No-Lift Shift question, most said "no thanks". One poster asked if it reduced transmission problems. From my experience with the Hewland FTR gearbox in the Star Mazda, I'd say probably not. It's more a convenience. More gearbox wear comes from downshifting than upshifting, from what I have seen. The toughest part of the no-lift-shift is making sure the device is always properly adjusted, something that takes a test driver to measure.

3. On the Gear Position Indicator question, your answers were mixed here. Some mentioned it might be most useful if we had a 6-speed gearbox. Some of you pointed out that we ought to know which gear we are in. My own feeling is that new drivers would benefit from it the most, allowing them to learn their shift patterns more easily. It could be easily activated on most data systems.

4. On the Shift Lights question, many of you said you shift by ear once you've looked at the tach a few times. Some commented the shift lights make life easy, not having to "read" a tachometer. Sy mentioned the variance in the mechanical tachometers, but if we have data on all the new cars, all will be digital and rather accurate.

Thank you all once again for your comments. Stay tuned for Survey #8 of 8. This next one will be posted by Sy.
__________________
Gerardo Bonilla

Professor of Comedic Slip Angle Use
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmark This Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): Skippy Components Survey #6 of 8 - IN-CAR VIDEO Gerardo Race Series Discussions 19 11-07-2006 10:31 PM
Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): Skippy Components Survey #5 of 8 - IN-CAR RADIO Gerardo Race Series Discussions 19 10-31-2006 11:13 PM
Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION Gerardo Race Series Discussions 70 10-24-2006 01:57 PM
Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): New Skippy Car Components Survey #3 of 8: SAFETY FEATURES Gerardo Race Series Discussions 46 10-16-2006 11:37 AM
Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES Gerardo Race Series Discussions 74 10-09-2006 11:59 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:45 AM.


TeamJuicyRacing.com's fast new hosting service has been generously provided by ZeroLag Communications :: 1-877-ZERO-LAG

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2017 - Team Juicy Racing / Team Juicy, LLC