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  #1  
Old 11-21-2006
AlDelattre AlDelattre is offline
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Reality Check

I'm not trying to sound negative here, but I understand the Dodge relationship with SBRS ended this past week....which means no more free cars/engines, as well as not much revenue in the form of driving schools (to the extent that was a big business - maybe it was for corporate events)...

Also, I heard that the couple key folks driving development on the new car have left....not sure if they have been replaced yet (I noted the want-ads out there even to this day...)

So, question is, aside from our "wish lists" on the threads, is anyone at SBRS reading them (aside from our friendly instructors) and given the recent happenings....is there even a chance they are going be able to launch a new car in the next couple years - financially or operationally?

Trust me, I like the R/T's, I still have a ways to go to get good in them, though the geek in me likes the fancy promises of the new ride...but am also seeing the costs of an aging fleet, high(er) and high(er) maintenance costs (i.e. prices), reduced reliability....let alone the prospect of replacing the engines (is there a new sponsor on the horizon? I had heard Mazda rumblings...).

Anyway, occurred to me to float the question and ask....

See everyone at Laguna Seca in a couple weeks...
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  #2  
Old 11-21-2006
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Re: Reality Check

I don't know what's going on with the new car or the engine deal. What I can tell you is that the first Southern Series weekend presented material challenges in terms of car equality. This statement does not demean the work of the testers or the mechanics. Both worked to the best of their abilities given the conditions.

I heard (but could not confirm) that 8 of the cars on the grid were running without restrictor plates because of very old or very new engines. Qualifying for the second Master's National race did not happen due to lack of car availability. I drove five different cars in six different sessions, three of which were markedly down on power, and one of which was borderline. Difficulty equalizing the cars put the testers and mechanics in an akward position with customers.

I question the ability of the current management to develop a new car if they can't run a race weekend properly with the existing one. Some might argue that the new car will solve the parts bottleneck, but acknowledging that bottleneck as one reason for the new car begs the question, why didn't management forecast and anticipate these problems? Perhaps the company could have secured additional parts for the RT cars or began development on a new car sooner. Why is there no new sponsor? I love racing with Skip, but this weekend frustrated me and many others.
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  #3  
Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Here's what I experienced this week-end:

1. In Race #1, I have car 56; Quentin Wahl is in car 95. For 3 laps, I am right behind Quentin. I gain on him from Turn 1 to Turn 7; he pulls away from me on the long straight out of turn 7. I am very frustrated with my DOP car. Quentin then pulls into the pits 4 laps from the end because he is so disgusted with his DOP car!

2. After Race #1, the tester runs car #56 and agrees that the car is DOP. The necessary fixes are done [presumably a restrictor plate is removed] and the car tests well in the speed trap at the end of the long straight. I get in the car for race #2 and I am as happy as can be. This car is humming; in the turn 1 through 4 complex, I feel I am running faster than ever; and I am getting a draft out of turn 7. Halleluiah.

Now to the punch lines.

1. Quentin set his fastest lap [1:38.226] of race #1 and of the whole week-end in the lap just prior to his retirement!!!
2. In Race #1, I set my fastest lap of the week-end at 1:38.612 versus 1:38.771 in race #2. In Race #1, my average lap time was 1:39.5; in Race #2, my average lap was 1:39.4 [excluding first and last laps].

Lap times in the mid-38's are good. They would have gotten you podiums in each of the 5 races in the Road Atlanta November 2003 event which had by far the best field [led by Andretti] in the last 3 years, and the same weather conditions as this week-end.

Net:
1. I think many drivers in the championship and masters groups [including me] would agree with Revere's statement;
2. Yet, the facts don't seem to support it;
3. Very spooky.
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  #4  
Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

In response to Revere's frustration. He was not alone, the frustration level was even higher within the ranks in pit lane. . .

Let me start by pointing out that I am an independant contractor whose passion and livelihood centers around this fleet of cars. I will go to the mat defending the efforts of the crew and the testers to always provide the highest equality humanly possible.

On any event we are faced with a finite amount of resources: Cars, Parts, Mechanics and Daylight! If you recall Wednesday Lapping was a complete rainout where we lost a couple of cars to crashes and NO TESTING.

Thursday lapping was seriously oversubcribed. Three large groups,plus a half dozen cars constantly in use for Lead/Follow & RT test day programs running concurrently meant that EVERY available car ran ALL DAY. OH and we also lost several more cars (and time) to BIG crashes.

To make a short story long, once testing started at 4:00 pm Thurs., the boys were facing a gargantuan task. Thirty some cars in an hour and a half of daylight!!! Not impossible if the cars were coming off some serious shop time and were fresh as a daisy, But a serious challenge none the less.

Factor in a good dose of clutch failures with some more crashes and you were faced with a compromised fleet.

What really made me proud was the way Keith, RB, Jason and the crew never gave up. Essentially testing right through the entire weekend as cars came back in line from crash/mechanical repairs. By Race day we witnessed some incredibly tight racing with upwards of six car trains on a horsepower track with cars that don't essentially draft all that well.

Equal/Quality cars just don't happen by accident. It takes considerable time and effort coupled with strong support. I agree we were short on a couple of those items on Friday, but it sure wasn't a lack of effort or committment!

respectfully, Stevie De!

P.S. If you wan't to look at peformance inequities let me point out Thusday nights Go-Kart extravaganza. Cart #12 was a rocketship! It even hauled my fat ass to to a top 3 ( driving away from JP who is a solid 80lbs lighter)
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  #5  
Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Different tires in '03 an explanation for different lap times?

No complaint about mechanics, testers, coaches - first class as always.

But, shades of Daytona a few years back... If too much demand is being made of too few resources, what does that say about planning and resource allocation?
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Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieDe
P.S. If you wan't to look at peformance inequities let me point out Thusday nights Go-Kart extravaganza. Cart #12 was a rocketship! It even hauled my fat ass to to a top 3 ( driving away from JP who is a solid 80lbs lighter)
Stevie, that was a fun karting event. Thanks for the great racing, and also for 'the squeeze' into the wall down the front straight. Painful, yet Polefull!

PS - A shoutout to Papa Carl, who hit me so hard going into the hairpin that my head still hurts.
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Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Let me reiterate that I don't fault the testers or the mechanics for the troubles this weekend. The weather conspired against them, but it also seems that the engine situation made equalizing the cars difficult. I could be mistaken, but I heard complaints about cars from many people -- more than usual.

Part of the challenge in understanding the difficulties we experienced this weekend is that there's no way to see the overall picture for car performance. We can report individual experience as I and Dom did, and even make comparisons with previous years, but our personal reports are anecdotal and limited to the cars we drove. Comparisons with other years don't take into account differences in driver ability and changes in equipment (I believe Skip Barber used different tires in the year Marco was around, and I believe we've been running slightly lower tire pressures since the beginning of the summer in an effort to reduce flatspotting).

Since it seems difficult to monitor fleet performance given variance in drivers, and weather and track conditions I advocate a new car that drafts better than the RT 2000. In olden times (the days of yore?), when I rode my dinosaur from Madison to Road America, and the Skippy cars still lacked wings and required you to know how to drive a stick, you had to win EVERY RACE in a series to win the championship. That doesn't happen anymore, partly due to the new group format, but mainly because the cars don't draft. Then, if you were a little DOP, you could stay in a race by drafting and out-thinking your opponents. It goes without saying that I was very, very slow at this time, so I never did these things, but it was possible to win races with a DOP car! I know Gerardo has thoughtfully solicited feedback on characteristics the new car should have in another set of threads, but I'd like to enter my vote here for a car that drafts.
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Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Dom, I came in the pits during that race not because car 56 was DOP but because it had a clutch problem and often upshifted from 2nd to 4th and took 2-3 tries to up or downshift. (PS why else would you ever catch me thru turns 1-7, I cannot possibly think of any other reason!!)

Importantly, I would not care if all the cars had a second or two slower lap times, but I do care that they are equal. But they are not equal and the problem is getting worse, I think every one agrees. This problem is not one that can be solved at the race track by testers or mechanics - their patience and committment is legendary, they do everything humanly possible, it is one that must be addressed by the management of SBRS.
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  #9  
Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Not to mention how it impacts the spirits of employees who are abused and exhausted from giving their best to an event crippled by weather and mechanical ills. Chronic mechanical issues illustrate the lack of planning and resource support needed to make the event worthy of their efforts.

The cost, as eloquently illustrated in this thread, is disenfranchised customers and employees.

You would hope this falls into the learning category of two steps forward, one step back, rather than the cynical, "Oh just our standard operating procedure around here."

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Greist
No complaint about mechanics, testers, coaches - first class as always.

But, shades of Daytona a few years back... If too much demand is being made of too few resources, what does that say about planning and resource allocation?
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Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlDelattre
I'm not trying to sound negative here, but I understand the Dodge relationship with SBRS ended this past week....which means no more free cars/engines, as well as not much revenue in the form of driving schools (to the extent that was a big business - maybe it was for corporate events)...
I don't follow you Al, why would the driving schools lose revenue with the end of the Dodge association? Even if SB lost the Dodge driving school cars & trucks, they would still offer schools with other vehicles.

I wasn't at RA but I heard it was a lot of fun even with the car problems, and that says a lot about SB race weekends. I think it's clear they need more race cars - yes, they are rebuilding them but we keep trashing them. I guess SB's gotta get more builders or we gotta trash fewer cars
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  #11  
Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quentin
Dom, I came in the pits during that race not because car 56 was DOP but because it had a clutch problem and often upshifted from 2nd to 4th and took 2-3 tries to up or downshift. (PS why else would you ever catch me thru turns 1-7, I cannot possibly think of any other reason!!)

Importantly, I would not care if all the cars had a second or two slower lap times, but I do care that they are equal. But they are not equal and the problem is getting worse, I think every one agrees. This problem is not one that can be solved at the race track by testers or mechanics - their patience and committment is legendary, they do everything humanly possible, it is one that must be addressed by the management of SBRS.
Good point! [but leaving me aside, you still had your best lap of the week-end just before coming in.]

I would be interested to hear from those who were not happy about their car to provide some factual back-up [e.g., relative times and positions].

Just speaking for myself: I was not happy with the car, but when you look at my times and results from one day to the next, I ended up where I should end up given my current abilities and the competition [I am on average a 30-point a race driver], and the improvement in the car's power from one day to the next did not make a difference in my performance, relative to either myself the previous day or other competitors.

Last edited by Dom Bastien; 11-22-2006 at 03:37 PM.
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  #12  
Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Greist
Different tires in '03 an explanation for different lap times?

No complaint about mechanics, testers, coaches - first class as always.

But, shades of Daytona a few years back... If too much demand is being made of too few resources, what does that say about planning and resource allocation?
The tires were different. They were the first iteration of the treaded tires, not as good as the current ones. Revere also makes a good point about the tire pressure. Definitely, current tires versus 2/3 years ago, have resulted in lower lap times. My point was simply that when you look at the overall results 2006 versus 2003, you would not conclude that the overall level of car performance has declined.
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Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom Bastien
The tires were different. They were the first iteration of the treaded tires, not as good as the current ones. Revere also makes a good point about the tire pressure. Definitely, current tires versus 2/3 years ago, have resulted in lower lap times. My point was simply that when you look at the overall results 2006 versus 2003, you would not conclude that the overall level of car performance has declined.

I think the focus of this thread is not the lap times one year to the next but on the equality of cars. No one would complain if lap times were 2 seconds slower on average than they were....but if the cars are unequal then it's just plain not fun (well, maybe its a little bit fun if you got a fast one).
What are the odds of one car winning in Masters National, and both Championship groups? Thats what car 86 did. Obviously someone had to drive it to it's potential, but it was the fastest car by far on Saturday.
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  #14  
Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quentin
I think the focus of this thread is not the lap times one year to the next but on the equality of cars. No one would complain if lap times were 2 seconds slower on average than they were....but if the cars are unequal then it's just plain not fun (well, maybe its a little bit fun if you got a fast one).
What are the odds of one car winning in Masters National, and both Championship groups? Thats what car 86 did. Obviously someone had to drive it to it's potential, but it was the fastest car by far on Saturday.
Actually that amazing feat was accomplished [almost twice!] at Mont Tremblant last July.

That the Skippy cars are not equal is not news. You were telling us the story years ago of the guy who spent his thursday afternoons with a speed gun to figure out what the best cars were. I keep a running data base of the results by car. I give it +1 for a drive that seems to exceed expectations and -1 for one that does not. But at the end of the day, it all washes out and, personally, whether I drive a +1 or a -1, I still end up with a fat zero in the victory column. But I have fun playing the game.

Last edited by cdh; 11-22-2006 at 06:18 PM.
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  #15  
Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

I enjoy the differences in car handling, but big power differentials are a pain.

Revere's earlier point about the equalizing value of drafting that the school cars offered and the fun of sorting out how to optimize outcomes with school cars that were a touch slow is a pleasant memory for some of us.

Hope the new cars draft better than the RT-2000s.

Appologies for drifting from the theme of this thread.
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  #16  
Old 11-22-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlDelattre
So, question is, aside from our "wish lists" on the threads, is anyone at SBRS reading them (aside from our friendly instructors) and given the recent happenings....is there even a chance they are going be able to launch a new car in the next couple years - financially or operationally?
Al,

I'm sure you're not alone in your feelings, or else all these replies would not have happened. To answer your questions, the loss of Dodge has not affected driving school revenue negatively. In fact, its up on the year thanks in part to the new High Performance Driving School featuring Porsche's, BMW's, and Audi's.

As for the new car and new sponsorship, all I can say is the company has some very good people working on it and hopefully they will make announcements soon. Keep in mind one of the biggest reasons to go to a new car is to reduce repair and maintenance costs thanks to fewer parts and faster labor. I'm with you guys, I hope it drafts better too!!

Are the higher ups reading these threads? You betcha. And I appreciate everyone making their contributions to the threads. There are few forums on the internet filled with so many well educated and passionate members quite like Team Juicy.

Cheers,
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  #17  
Old 11-23-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdh
I guess SB's gotta get more builders or we gotta trash fewer cars
I'm vowing right now to do the latter
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  #18  
Old 11-26-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Perhaps SBRS could offer a discount to drivers who can also work on cars. It seems most of us are gear heads anyway. I am probably not as talented as the mechanics, but i could replace tires, gas up cars in between races or stay at night and assist in the repairing of cars. It might help free up mechanics during the day and let them get to their hotel earlier than 10 or 11 pm. I would love to get a small discount on my race weekend in exchange for work. We could also get to the track earlier at tracks that don't have decibel restrictions such as LRP.
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Old 11-27-2006
AlDelattre AlDelattre is offline
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Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdh
I don't follow you Al, why would the driving schools lose revenue with the end of the Dodge association? Even if SB lost the Dodge driving school cars & trucks, they would still offer schools with other vehicles.

I wasn't at RA but I heard it was a lot of fun even with the car problems, and that says a lot about SB race weekends. I think it's clear they need more race cars - yes, they are rebuilding them but we keep trashing them. I guess SB's gotta get more builders or we gotta trash fewer cars
Hey Doug -

This was a question, not an assertion, but 1) with the departure of "free cars", they'd have to PAY to have some other cars there for folks to drive 2) given a shortage of cars (if that were true), I'd assume a loss of revenue (cancelled classes) and 3) I know quite a few folks who took the course just to blast around in the Viper...kind of the "showpiece ride" and a centerpoint of a lot of fun.

I guess I"m projecting a concern that this (interim?) lack of sponsorship (cash, cars, gear) is a double-hitter - hits the topline and the bottomline.

Now, what I have no clue about is all the stuff I've heard in this thread now about shear plates, clutches, clevis pins, etc - which have nothing to do with Dodge.....

I guess they can rent some Hertz Shelby Mustangs at the local airport to sub for Vipers...

Hope that makes sense

(ADDED)

BTW just read down the thread and saw Gerardo's response to my original question - thanks for the heads up!!

On Steve's earlier point, I recall the first LRP weekend this summer - total carnage. I think one of the guys actually totalled 3 cars during that weekend alone. To add more pain, this was the "Black Friday" where we had to stand down after Group 2 or 3 to inspect the cars - forgot which part was the problem...

See you at Laguna Seca
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  #20  
Old 11-27-2006
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Re: Reality Check

There was a pretty good size fleet of Porsche Boxter's, plus a couple of 911's, in the SBR compound two weeks ago at Laguna.

And, forget the Mustangs, all of the Hertz Shelby's are automatics, not to mention that the if you show up with a helmet bag in hand the Hertz manager in San Jose Intl gives you a beady-eyed look-over I last saw years ago from a father as I picked up his daughter for a date.
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Old 11-27-2006
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Re: Reality Check

The traction control is also hard-wired to ON in the Hertz Mustang. Maybe there's a fuse somewhere?
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Old 11-27-2006
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Re: Reality Check

I ended up renting a Mustang from Hertz once. I think it was either a 2004 or 2005. In any case this was the absolute worse car I have ever driven! It would have been a bit better if they were not trying to advertise it as a sports car. It could accelerate adequately in a straight line, but was pathetic once you hit about 60 or so. On the highway you'd floor it and it would take a second or so before anything worthwhile happened. The revs would go up and then finally it would change down a gear and start accelerating. Made lane changes a bit scary. It also couldn't corner to save its life. In turns that I can go round in my car at 35 or so without any trouble the Mustang was screaming its head off at about 20 mph!

The interior is also an exercise in how not to design a car. This car is not small on the outside, but somehow they managed to make the interior cramped. At 6-4 I do find it hard to get into cars sometimes, but with the amount of space this car used on the outside I was amazed at the lack of leg room on the inside. Plus the guages were all inset very deeply into the dash, effectively obscuring the top of each guage, making it hard to view them.

The steering wheel was also impossible to hold firmly with both hands for any length of time. It's as if they purposely designed it to be held with one hand somewhere near the top. The feedback from the wheel was non existant, as the car would lumber around the road, continuing to bounce several seconds after hitting a bump.

I would never recommend this car to anyone who enjoys driving. I'd give it zero out of one stars. Perhaps if it was marketed as a family sedan I'd give it one star.

Tha fuel mileage was also incredibly low, somewhere around 15 mpg!

Off the topic of this thread I know, ut I couldn't help myself.
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  #23  
Old 11-27-2006
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Re: Reality Check

No dice on removing traction control, its hard wired through what ford calls the GEM module, or on board computer.
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  #24  
Old 11-27-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Big Al..I believe it was the Clevis Pins at LRP....
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  #25  
Old 11-27-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by LimeRockRacer
Big Al..I believe it was the Clevis Pins at LRP....
Chris, you are correct.
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  #26  
Old 11-27-2006
AlDelattre AlDelattre is offline
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Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso
There was a pretty good size fleet of Porsche Boxter's, plus a couple of 911's, in the SBR compound two weeks ago at Laguna.

And, forget the Mustangs, all of the Hertz Shelby's are automatics, not to mention that the if you show up with a helmet bag in hand the Hertz manager in San Jose Intl gives you a beady-eyed look-over I last saw years ago from a father as I picked up his daughter for a date.
hey, I was referring to the "proletariat-level" driving school - Neons, trucks and the like....not the "bougoise-capitalist" High-Performance Fleet....which I'd take out and run for the same price as the base driving school....(BTW - doesn't SBRS have to buy, and/or lease, those? Back to my point about manufacturer/sponsor support...).

As for the clevis pins....that's right. Thanks for reminding me...
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Old 11-27-2006
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Re: Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlDelattre
hey, I was referring to the "proletariat-level" driving school - Neons, trucks and the like....not the "bougoise-capitalist" High-Performance Fleet....which I'd take out and run for the same price as the base driving school....(BTW - doesn't SBRS have to buy, and/or lease, those? Back to my point about manufacturer/sponsor support...).

As for the clevis pins....that's right. Thanks for reminding me...

Indeed. And it would take a darn long time to refuel 12 proletariat RT-2000s with a couple of bougoise-capitalist Boxter tankers if the Ram 3500 dualies go away.

Had the Sheby Mustang for 7 days in Monterey. Absoute blast down the coast. Very loud, mostly intake noise, and drug its exhaust system going and coming at the underground hotel garage. Huge fun down Rte 1 to San Simeon. Very quick, in a straight line at least. What else would you rent? $500 for 7 days, curb to curb.

Mike
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  #28  
Old 11-27-2006
AlDelattre AlDelattre is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seat 2B
Posts: 161
Re: Reality Check

Jeff Kaiser had one at Miller - in the snow. He tried and tried, but it gave out at 100mph...but it is fun.

I read in the SCCA magazine - or was it Autoweek - that Enterprise Rent-a-Car is going to be offering Lotus Elise's (Elisi?) at certain locations - nothing on line yet (I called and looked), but that might be interesting.....
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Old 11-27-2006
gman's Avatar
gman gman is offline
Podium Regular / Advanced Member (50+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: miami beach
Posts: 68
Re: Reality Check

I rented the Hertz a couple months ago and was also disapointed. The first car they gave me had been wrecked and drove like crap. The second was ok, but handling and braking didn't exist. What I did learn driving the car is this.

To Disable the TCM:

There is a TCM button on top of the radio that can be popped out with a screwdriver or thin key. Under the button there is a restrictor pin that is easily removed which will allow you to access the TCM on/off.

Remove the button (takes a little bit of nerve the first time)
Pull out the pin
Toss both the pin and button into the center console till you return the car
Press the button (area where you removed it) and disable traction control.
Step on Brake and Gas simultaneously - if you light up your rear you have successfully disabled TCM:

Once you remove the pin the car takes on a very different personality - much improved but still dissapointing.

Don't forget to replace the pin and button.
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