3 Day SBR School Decisions

[Mr Grinch]

Hey Gang, first post here after reading countless threads. Great site, with lots of good advice and wisdom. Been looking and asking all over the net about the three day racing school and am finally at the perfect spot to learn.

I own a new MX5 and am interested in the three day racing school. Given that, would you recommend taking the course in the MX5 or the open wheeler? Seems like a no-brainer to go with the MX5, but I wanted to ask those of you who have experience at the school if there are any considerations that would make the open wheel training more beneficial.

By the way, I am fairly tall- 6'3" (not fat (yet!), just tall) and barely fit in my MX5. I wonder if the any leg room lost to the racing seat in the MX5 cars would make the open wheeler more workable.

Also, which location do you recommend? I could go to Sebring or Road Atlanta. I am familiar with both tracks. Road Atlanta seems very challenging due to elevation changes along with the downhill run into turn twelve, but so does Sebring with all of those walls close by. I also wonder if the format is different, or if the instructors and facilities are better at one over the other. Sebring is listed as cheaper for some reason too.

Speaking of which- Does Barber use the old Club Course at Sebring on the north side of the track, or the Southern half that Panoz (I think) used to use? The southern half doesn't seem as interesting as the Club course to my uneducated eye.

Would you opt for the increased damage waiver? It would seem that it would be very easy to crunch a car at either of those locations.

I'm not looking for a racing career at age fifty, but rather looking to gain the skills to do some sort of club racing locally, depending upon how the school goes of course!

Thanks for the great website and for your time as well!

Grinch

[dalyduo]

Welcome Grinch...

My personal opinion is that you will learn more going with the open wheel school.

If you can learn to drive an SB school formula car and/or an SB 2000 well, you will more than likely find the transition to any other type of racecar more manageable. Less so starting with the MX-5 because it is a street car that is heavier and less responsive. Perhaps some instructors will chime in and give their opinions...

You'll have fun doing either school and at 6'3 will fill up the cockpit of both the open wheel cars and the MX-5's

A number of us have recently been racing Miatas and MX-5's and everyone I've talked to feels their open wheel training put them far ahead of those who've only raced production based racecars.

Don't know what part of Sebring they use for schools but that is really of no concern for your initial school experience. You'll be too steep in the learning curve to worry about track layout.

BTW... Received my 3 day as a 50th birthday gift 5 years ago. Thought it would be my only time in a racecar and all it did was set the hook. Have done about 15 SB race weekends since then and just recently began running in Miata enduros that were great fun. (A 13 hr, a 6 hr, and a 90 minute)

Have often said that next to meeting my wife and the birth of my daughter, racing is the most fun I've had on the planet. Hope you have a similar experience.

[AZRCD]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

Welcome Grinch...

My personal opinion is that you will learn more going with the open wheel school.

If you can learn to drive an SB school formula car and/or an SB 2000 well, you will more than likely find the transition to any other type of racecar more manageable. Less so starting with the MX-5 because it is a street car that is heavier and less responsive. Perhaps some instructors will chime in and give their opinions...

You'll have fun doing either school and at 6'3 will fill up the cockpit of both the open wheel cars and the MX-5's

A number of us have recently been racing Miatas and MX-5's and everyone I've talked to feels their open wheel training put them far ahead of those who've only raced production based racecars.

Don't know what part of Sebring they use for schools but that is really of no concern for your initial school experience. You'll be too steep in the learning curve to worry about track layout.

BTW... Received my 3 day as a 50th birthday gift 5 years ago. Thought it would be my only time in a racecar and all it did was set the hook. Have done about 15 SB race weekends since then and just recently began running in Miata enduros that were great fun. (A 13 hr, a 6 hr, and a 90 minute)

Have often said that next to meeting my wife and the birth of my daughter, racing is the most fun I've had on the planet. Hope you have a similar experience.

Good advice, all of it.

[GEORGE]

Welcome Grinch. This subject has been often discussed between friends here....Most of us started our racing "Careers" at the ripe old age north of 45. Most of them attended SCCA 3 day schools of the historic series 3 day schools. They said that the emphasis was on RULES and Regulations and not so much on the craft of driving (Car control, racing line, Braking and going faster).
I would absolutely go to an open wheel school. I never learned so much about the skill of driving as at that school. The speed just came along naturally.
I do feel for you though. I am 6'2" and weigh in at 215lb. Damn those cars are tight. You will get used to it though. I found i could stuff myself into an 'A' chassis just fine if the choice was drive or wait for a 'B'. The tightness of the chassis goes away as soon as the engine fires up.
Enjoy your three day. It is the experience we all remember the most. Even after years of advanced schools and racing.

[Jim Pace]

Mr. Grinch,
Skip uses different track configurations at Sebring based on availability. All are good school tracks! The open wheel school is the way to go to LEARN about driving/racing. If you put the time and focus into doing well in the formula car you can take those skills anywhere!

For FUN the MX5 school is terrific!!! Non-intimidating surroundings, synchro tranny, ABS, big seats, and a convertible! The car is very forgiving and makes everyone look like an F1 champ.

Great schools that follows a similar format across the country regardless of instructors. Instructors do give it the flavor.


So really there is no wrong answer. Taking either school will be an adventure and often (as witnessed on this site) life changing! Sign up and enjoy!
JP

[robbyracenut]

Go for the formula cars... All of your actions in the car have so much more of an immediate effect that it really forces you to learn all of the good fundamentals. I haven't found any other car out there that tells you when you've made any kind of mistake as clearly as the 3 day school formula car does. Great prep for any direction a driver decides to go afterwards... Keep in mind that most of this is training the driver's general mental racing process and instinct, and is not about creating that individualized relationship with a given car.

[Mr Grinch]

Man, I am surprised to see that most recommend the open wheel car, even for a guy that owns an MX5.

Jim- Nice airplane. I learned to fly in BTR and was later stationed in Meridien as a Navy instructor. It appears we may have raged around the same airspace in days of yore.

So you seem to be saying that having an instructor with you in the MX5 is subordinate to the feedback and challenge of the open wheeler? I also wondered if the MX5 would result in more seat time and smaller classes with perhaps a higher instructor to student ratio.

This is making my decision more difficult, but I think at least I'll opt for Road Atlanta for the three day.

Any more thoughts would be appreciated, I'm waiting for a call back from the Barber Advisors.

Thanks,

Grinch

[dalyduo]

Depending on how busy they are you might not want to wait for a callback.

You can check availability online at 3-Day formula racing school availability and reserve a time and location that works for you or call a service rep at 1-800-221-1131 and handle it all by phone.

[LimeRockRacer]

Welcome oh green one!

I concur with everything being said prior to my post. As a former 12 year owner of a mint mx-5, and loving every minute of it by the way, the three day open wheel school is the way to go.

My first school was north of the big 40 with no racing experience. While it may seem somewhat intimidating at first there is no question you will get the bug by mid day 2. My experience and that of most I have talked to that have been through the program goes something like this..." Sign up with some trepidation and excitement. Day 1: Can't believe I am here to what the @ *@% am I doing here? Day 2: This is kind of fun and wow am I having a blast. To day 3: High fiving your friends in class that you have now bonded and raced with and can't wait for the next advanced school."

The open wheel school will teach you more racing technique and driving dynamics in a car that is faster and has more grip than the MX-5. I also think you will fit better in the formula car although tight.

Sign-up now and don't look back. Everything you will learn and experience will take you to a place in the car you never could have imagined. Knowing you are a pilot I think you will also enjoy the technical aspects of the Skippy program and the dynamics of the car and the relationship that the driver has with the machine as pilot.

Best of luck and let us know how you do...

[rslonaker]

Mr. Grinch,
Think of it this way, the car is a tool that you learn to control to do a task(drive a fast lap). Some tools are better than others at communicating your commands. In this case the Formula Skip is designed from the ground up for one specific task, go quickly around a race track and do everything the driver commands, exactly and without delay.
The MX-5 is a street car that has been modified to drive better than stock around the track, but is heavier and more numb to the drivers command (hence the forgiveness factor).
Like JP said, for fun and ease of use, the MX-5 will be a blast. If you think you might have the slightest inclination to get hooked (be honest...you will) and continue, then you will get more out of the FS seat time.
Cheers,
Rob

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by Mr Grinch

... am fairly tall- 6'3" (not fat (yet!), just tall) ...

Also, which location do you recommend? I could go to Sebring or Road Atlanta.

Grinch

I vote formula. The light weight and low polar moment make the school cars (and later the RT's) so much more athletic than any production car. They will knock you socks off, and they are very good platforms to begin to earn the craft with.

I'm 54, 6'-2" and fit in the formula cars just fine, even with the seat set in the 3rd notch from the back. Fat would be a problem, if it comes. If you proceed beyond the 4-speed 3-day school cars to the ratchet-shifter sequential 5-speed RT's, make sure you obtain a good, but thin, pad for your right elbow. You can thank me later.

Road Atlanta. Elevation changes are da bomb. I have not driven there since it was reconfigured to make it safer for the Champ Cars (who left anyway grrrrr), but there is more run-off room now (way more than Sebring?) and the fewer things to run into early in the learning curve, the happier your experience will be. Laguna Seca in Monterey is also a very good track, and offers the added bonus of pretty good year round weather, Carmel shopping and dining.

[dalyduo]

I'll strongly second the elbow pad suggestion.

While a few get away without 'em, most all of us use them. You won't feel it until you work up to speed and start generating strong side loads. Your elbow area will bounce off the tube frame side members (especially on the shifter side) and you won't realize it untill late in the day when the your elbows will look and feel like someone has been working 'em over with a hammer. The pads are cheap and any good sporting goods store should have 'em.

[oldredracer]

HI Grinch,

Wouldn't be your worst decision to do the three day in a Miata. Depends a little on prior experience, reflexes and what you think you know vs. what you know, but a car with a little forgiveness isn't a bad thing while you're shedding bad habits and learning good ones. And it isn't a sign of cowardice to opt for run off room.

I don't have stock in SBRS, biased though I am, but doing a two-day advanced or a car control clinic in a Formula Skippy car would be a good progression. Either way, remember that a high performance car reacts to good inputs immediately and very well and to bad inputs immediately and just as well, if not better.

Insurance is a good thing.

Be a sponge. Be a little better each lap. Then come back and tell us how it went as we welcome you to the dark side. Have a ball.

[Mr Grinch]

Thanks again to all of you who replied.

It appears that the majority recommend the Formula Barber car as a better platform with which to learn the basics. The deeper I get into this, the more I see why that is the case (just finished reading "The Bible"- Going Faster).

I've been in touch with an "advisor" at Skip Barber and he also recommended the FB single seater, mentioning that having an instructor along in an MX5 isn't that great of an advantage since the instructors are only onboard for a few laps at most. Also, I would be able to take any advanced or lapping type courses in the MX5 should I want to give the Mazda a try down the road. He also recommended thin-soled driving shoes (which I have) to make sure I fit in the single seater. I will sign up for the damage liability reduction as well.

So it looks like I am going to try for Road Atlanta in a couple of months in the single seater. Easier for me to get there among other things. Just waiting on vacation assignment to sign up.

Appreciate your taking time to answer my questions. Perhaps the thread will help someone else who might be considering the same options down the road.

Don't be bashful in pointing out errors in my thinking!

Grinch

[cdh]

You will have a good time in any program but I would also vote for the open wheelers for the reasons stated. Plus, there is a certain raciness to the single seater you don't get even in a race prepped MX-5.

I would strongly recommend buying some proper racing shoes (unless yours are real race shoes), they make a big difference for not a lot of dough, very important to have good pedal feel.

Go fast, have fun

[OverRev]

Hi Grinch,
I was just reading through some of the threads and noticed this one. I think you'll find that MOST of our students at skip barber wont get the oppurtunity to race a formula car outside of Skip. Most of the students who want to take it to the next level outside of Skip Barber lets say SCCA or NASA are going to end up driving a sedan of some sort. Which school or car for you is dependent upon a few things. What are you used to? Where would you like to go?

I'd say that the formula car school is a great idea for someone out of karts or someone looking to move into Formula cars. As an experience the Formula car is much more exciting to drive, You sit in the middle, the cars pretty quick, your helmets out in the air!

Like i said before if your planning on racing SCCA/NASA chances are, based on budget for the majority of the students, its going to be a sedan. Spec Miata is a great series for example and the MX-5 can definitley get you ready for that. The car is actually only 3-5 seconds off the pace of the formula cars at Road Atlanta so the speeds arent that different. If your looking for a career starter, More people are getting paid to drive Sports Cars than Formula cars.. Hope this helps!

Ryan Eversley

[Mr Grinch]

Originally Posted by OverRev

Hi Grinch,
I was just reading through some of the threads and noticed this one. I think you'll find that MOST of our students at skip barber wont get the oppurtunity to race a formula car outside of Skip....

Ryan Eversley

Hi Ryan,

I assume that you are an instructor at Road Atlanta? Do you do both programs (FSB/MX5)?

The problem, like probably many of your students, is that I don't yet know where I want to take this, and thought that experience gained in the class would reveal a lot about what I should pursue. I do live fairly close to Texas Motor Ranch and a new track northwest of DFW. Also could get into Karts fairly easily due to contacts locally.

As mentioned in the thread starter, I own an MX5, and initially wanted to go that route until the vast majority of members here recommended the single seater. Considering that I could (according to my phoncon with a Barber Rep) do the 3 day in the single seater and later take any advanced courses in the MX5 later. As it stands now, it also might be my only chance to drive a single seat car.

Unless there is some gain from having an instructor aboard, revealing all of the carefully guarded secrets about the MX5, then I thought I'd try the single seater.

Probably will schedule tomorrow as I have spent too much time overthinking this!

Very much appreciate your wisdom though. Been very enlightening to see everyone's thinking on this.

Grinch

[Mr Grinch]

Originally Posted by cdh

I would strongly recommend buying some proper racing shoes (unless yours are real race shoes), they make a big difference for not a lot of dough, very important to have good pedal feel.

Go fast, have fun

Any recommendations? I just have a pair of cheapo Addidas to give me a bit more legroom in my MX5.

Also, some are recommending elbow and perhaps knee pads. I have both, but do those recommendations address the school cars or are they limited to the cars you guys race in the series?

Thanks,

Grinch

[rcote]

Good advice from everyone Grinch ..... I remember when I started at SBRS, R.B. and Todd Snyder both told me that if you can drive a Skippy Formula car quick, you can drive pretty much anything well... At the time I couldn't believe it, but just as the others here that have gone on to more "sophisticated" equipment will say, that assesement is spot on.

As for shoes, yes most definitely get some dedicated driving shoes, worth every penny. Elbow and knee pads are something alot of racers like in the R/T and the school cars. Although the shape of the school FB car is shaped differently and makes elbow/shoulder room much tighter.

There are quality shoes allover... I've prefered Simpson or Impacts for awhile now because of their durability to cost ratio.

Heres a start for you.. http://www.saferacer.com/auto-racing-shoes/?cat=55

Have fun, listen intently, ask questions, and ..... keep your eyes up

[OverRev]

Grinch,

Yes I am an instructor with skip, I was acquired with the Panoz buyout so I have been working all the programs Skip has to offer at Road Atlanta. I'd say based on your feedback, Go with the formula car. But please dont count the MX-5 out! Seeing as how your an MX-5 owner we both know how much fun they are to drive!! After you take your three day I would definitly look towards doing some Skip races or talking to the fine folks at MER which is based at MSR DFW They have the older style spec miatas as well as the new MX-5s. Its close to your home and a really fun race track! I wont be suprised if Skip ends up going there soon. As for the shoes you DEFINITLY need some racing shoes. If by cheap adidas you mean the replica racing shoes, Those are perfect. Same with Puma they sell them as well. Tennis shoes wont work. You might not need elbow pads but you will definitley need gloves. The shifter is very close to the fiberglass bodywork and I've seen some bloody knuckles because of it.

Good luck!
Ryan Eversley

[WatertownNewbie]

Grinch,
Welcome. You are tall and might have large feet. Mine are size 13. That corresponds to a 48 in the metric world, but my feet swim around in shoes that size. Get the smallest size that your feet can fit in. Notice that I did not say fit in comfortably. Your shoes need to be as tight as you can stand. I have size 45, and they are great. Also, per a couple of instructors who also have large feet, Sparco makes the best shoes for people with large feet. I'll put in a plug for the folks at SpeedwareMotorsports, who sent me several pairs to try (charged my card and then gave a credit for those I shipped back -- no restocking fee). They are at www.speedwaremotorsports.com.
Lastly, when you get ready to buy a bunch of equipment, check out a thread that was started around August 2005 on how to buy a helmet. The thread quickly expanded into a wonderful summary of all that you need to know about what to buy and where to get it. Have fun.

[Mr Grinch]

Originally Posted by WatertownNewbie

Grinch,
Welcome. You are tall and might have large feet. ..

Thanks for the heads up on the helmet thread. I'll have a look forthwith. Little feet here though, just a 10 1/2. SB advisor said I ought to fit in both cars.

Question for you all if you don't mind-

On the double clutch down shift- I've been blipping the throttle for years with a single clutch technique. I've read the double clutch sequence in "Going Faster" and have been practicing it as much as possible but want to make sure that I am not doing negative training. So with respect to the blip only- I've been doing it by "shifting into neutral", letting the clutch back out, and then blipping and moving the shift lever as I push the clutch back in. Sort of like the single clutch technique after shifting into neutral.

Is this correct, or should the blip be larger and separate, with the clutch out, followed by quickly pushing the clutch in and moving the shift lever without really touching the throttle again?

I ask because watching a Youtube video of a Daytona "talk through" seemed to have the blip done separately, where watching guys shift while lapping looks different.

Best,

Grinch

[grady192]

Welcome Mr Grinch,
I'm basically repeating whats already been said. Absolutely go with the formula car for your 3 day. I had my first drive in a spec miata this year. Made me think a caveman could do it.
Get gloves, definitely bring your elbow pads with you, I got by with sneakers on my 3 day but had to get driving shoes for the series car. I sized my shoes like ski boots. When standing up strait my toes touch the front but back off just a bit with knees flexed. So far I've been impressed with everything I've bought from sparco. When you get a helmet, order from a couple different manufacturers as each one will fit a little different. Its not uncommon for the online retailers to send multiple helmets, suits, etc to the same person to insure the right fit and they won't charge a restocking fee but I always get a verbal on the no restocking fee before sealing the deal.
The school cars like a distinct blip if memory serves me correct. Others can give you more info on that.
I never understood addiction to something untill I took my 3 day. Now I'm a junkie, I'm sure I'll see you at a track some day. Good Luck!
Jeff.

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by Mr Grinch

Any recommendations? I just have a pair of cheapo Addidas to give me a bit more legroom in my MX5.

Also, some are recommending elbow and perhaps knee pads. I have both, but do those recommendations address the school cars or are they limited to the cars you guys race in the series?

Thanks,

Grinch

The most notable think about the formula car footwell is that it is very narrow and the brake and throttle pedals are extremely close together - which is not a bad thing. With my heel on the floor and the ball of my right foot hard against the steering shaft I can still cover the brake pedal and throttle pedal at the same time. (10-1/2 medium Simpson Speedway shoe) Running shoes or court shoes are simply too wide (and too thick soled) to be of any use. I the internet era real racing shoes are easy to find, if finding the right fit the first time a bit dodgey. Wrestling or boxing shoes work pretty well, but are not fire proof. I never had an elbow problem in the school cars, but beat the crap out of my right elbow after 1 day in the RT at the 2-day ADV school at Laguna (a great location for any school).

[Slowhands]

Mr Grinch, my $.02:

I did my 3-day in non-fireproof Puma driving shoes (Grit Cat II) which I now use for casual wear driving my Miata, bought from Zappos.com for about $70, and $35 Shift Nomex racing gloves, and borrowed everything else from Skip. Went cheap because I wasn't sure how far I was going to go with this.

Didn't need elbow pads till I got in the RT at Laguna.

Use the available seat foam pads in your 3 day, if you fall in love with formula cars, you can have a seat insert poured.

Do the 3-day and your advanced 2 day in a formula car, you will learn faster how to anticipate what the car needs rather than reacting to it. This training will pay off in any other car you drive. You will never regret it. After that the MX-5 will be easy to learn and if you would prefer to race that you can.

Do a car control clinic.

I started this after 40 from scratch and after a lot of seat time can run at the back and occasionally midpack of Champ. You have no idea how addicting this sport is, until you make your first successful pass and make it stick. Welcome to the dark side.

[Mr Grinch]

I know I keep thanking you guys for taking the time to respond, but I certainly appreciate all of the great information. It's been very valuable and enlightening.

Just signed up for Road Atlanta in the FSB car on 25-27 April.

For OverRev and the rest of the instructors, I look forward to meeting you, and hope that you will kick my butt and make sure I am doing things correctly. Anything you can pass along on what I should be reading, practicing, or thinking about between now and the course would be appreciated.

Thanks again!

Grinch

[Tireman]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

Mr Grinch, my $.02:

.......after a lot of seat time can run at the back and occasionally midpack of Champ....

Gosh Harsha, I have no where NEAR the seat time you do and I can run at the back of the pack, or DFL, almost any time !!

Viz

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by Tireman

Gosh Harsha, I have no where NEAR the seat time you do and I can run at the back of the pack, or DFL, almost any time !!
Viz

And that, my friend, is why Skippy loves me more than you!

(or maybe I should be using this one? )

[badgersid]

Harsha my friend the further back in the pack you are the more people to watch and learn from.

miss you hope to see you soon

sid

[oldredracer]

There's a video somewhere of Bobo starting DFL at Lime Rock. You're looking forward from his roll bar cam while he explains that you're looking at a 'target-rich environment'. Yee hah.

Found it. It's on his website.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by oldredracer

There's a video somewhere of Bobo starting DFL at Lime Rock. You're looking forward from his roll bar cam while he explains that you're looking at a 'target-rich environment'. Yee hah.

Found it. It's on his website.

Right in front of your nose, see video link at TOP OF THIS PAGE

Actually there are 2 like that, the 'target rich environment' is from the Dangerfield Memorial

the other is the Roger Ward Memorial, both Bobo driving at LRP, yeeee ha

[John Greist]

I'm coming late to this party Grinch, but you've gotten great advice from all and made the better decision. Starting with the Formula School, you can do any MX-5 activities leading up to and including racing them. Starting with the MX-5 School qualifies you for more MX-5 activities, but not for Formula activities except perhaps car control. So if you decide to follow the open wheel path, you'd need to do the Formula School anyway.

The claim that the MX-5 is only 3 seconds slower than the Formula car at Road Atlanta makes me wonder who was driving the Formula car. At Sebring, the FT-2000 lap record is 2:25.6 vs. the Skippy MX-5 record of 2:44.6 (19 seconds slower). BSI MX-5s will do 2:36, but they're still a far cry from the formula cars. MX-5s are fun and forgiving but they're not Formula cars. At an early stage in learning the craft, substituting many hours of seat time in a MX-5 for few hours in a Formula car makes sense for many. But if drivers spent the same number of hours in both cars, the Formula driver would learn lots more - and be able to drive an MX-5 much better than the MX-5 only driver.

For some of us, the best Skippy car you'll every drive is the 3 day school car with the Hewland 4 speed. Great slip angle potential means great learning potential. Those who feel this way race the RT-2000s because we have to, not because they're better race cars or more fun because they're not.

Enough. You've made a great decision and should have a great time in the Formula school at Road Atlanta, hopefully with instructors who appreciate and capitalize on the advantages built into the Formula cars.

[OverRev]

John,
Just to give you some insight, Eric Foss who has been racing at Road Atlanta and working as an instructor at Rd Atl for 10 years did most of the inital testing for the MX-5s and Was able to lap in the 45 second range at Rd Atl. On the same day in the formula cars he was in the 41's. Im sure there was still some time left but from what I understand not a great deal.

"But if drivers spent the same number of hours in both cars, the Formula driver would learn lots more - and be able to drive an MX-5 much better than the MX-5 only driver."

This is completely an opinion not fact. If this was the case than Alex Barron who I would say is pretty damn good in Formula Cars would have dusted us all in Koni Challenge at Daytona a few weeks ago. Getting used to weight transfer and rolling speed into corners vs. being johnny on the gas at entry to every corner as is the case with alot of formula car drivers is a Huge difference. It normally takes formula car drivers a while to adapt to the difference in not only driving style but setup of the cars.

Cheers,
Ryan

[chsutherland]

The more cars I race, and the more track time I get, the more I agree with Dr. Greist. School cars are the way to go. I have not gotten to drive one since my 3day and would really like to. I think John is correct that the skippy formula cars make one a better all around driver. I have not driven one of the SBRS MX-5 and doubt I will for a variety of reasons. There isn't any race car parts on them from what I can tell, outside of a roll cage and drivers net. I have driven the BSI MX5's, however I attribute my success(relative) in them to my coaching at SBRS and the SBRS formula cars. I firmly believe that the RT2000 made it easier for me to drive an MX5. The RT2000 is a tricky little bastard, however it is a good platform for teaching. I will second John's motion for racing the school cars!!

[John Greist]

Thanks for the insights Ryan, and your opinions.

You cite Eric's lap times as nearly the same at Road Atlanta for the SB MX-5 and the FC, without providing specifics. At Sebring (Dec 15-16, 2007), where pretty good shoes (Gabby Chaves and Russ Monckton) were pedaling Skippy's MX-5s and Monckton set the lap record (2:44), they were 15 seconds off Gabby's pace in the RT-2000 (2:29). The MX-5s were 10% slower.

At Laguna (Jan 12-13, 2008) where Jonathan Frost, another Skippy instructor, set the lap record (1:50.2) in the MX-5, and Mikel Miller, another instructor, managed 1:50.1 the next day - both pretty fair racers - the RTs driven by Skippy customers were running 1:40s. Again 10% slower.

At Road Atlanta November 17-18, 2007, Gabby Chavez set the Formula car lap record at 1:35.4 while the MX-5 lap record was set at 1:46.9 (Cliff Brown), 12% slower - no ringers allowed? I can certainly accept that Eric's may have lapped at 1:45 in an MX-5, and if we made it 1:45.4 to make the maths easier, he would only be 10.5% slower than Gabby in a Formula Car.

How to understand Eric's great times in the MX-5 compared with his comparatively slow Formula times at Road Atlanta - at a 4 second difference, only 3% slower in the MX-5? Was his MX-5 faster than the usual MX-5 or his Formula Car much slower than the usual Formula Car? Is he more skilled in a fendered sports car than a Formula car? I would venture the opinion that top SBR Regional customers would lap Road Atlanta at least 8 and more often 9 seconds quicker than customers in the SB MX-5s.

Congratulations on your 12th place finish in the Koni Fresh From Florida 200. I'm not sure why Alex Barron was dragged into this discussion. Could there be other explanations for Alex finishing 15th than his ability in Formula Cars and yours in Koni cars?

John

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by chsutherland

I will second John's motion for racing the school cars!!

Since they won't let us race the truck, why not the school cars?

[StevieDe]

Whoa there Over-Rev.....

Do you really want to start the debate of the millenium on open vs. closed wheel philosophy and lifestyle.

Lot's of well respected opinions here all with their own frame of reference.

I came to SBRS with a closed wheel background (with the exception of my Jim Russell 3-day school at Willow in '78).

I will say that Foss in an MX-5 would show the full potential of that car around Atl.
Jason Holehouse or Todd Snyder in the SBR formula would more likely show the full potential of the formula car....

Lap time difference does not tell the whole story.

Both require some experience and mastery to wring the most out of.

IMHO ,as a pure teaching tool , the 4-speed formula on low grip street radials is MUCH more demanding and that in itself accelerates the learning curve.

The MX-5 is a comfortable car for most people to get up to speed relatively quickly, but is SO much more forgiving it masks a lot questionable techniques along the way.

Dr. John and a few others that raced the 4-speed/no wing school cars are all quite vocal on what a hoot the cars are to drive!
There are legions of SBR formula faithful that have driven ALL manner
of professional series that would likely echo John' sentiments..

It's All Fun!
SD

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by StevieDe

Whoa there Over-Rev.....

Lot's of well respected opinions here all with their own frame of reference.

The MX-5 is a comfortable car for most people to get up to speed relatively quickly, but is SO much more forgiving it masks a lot questionable techniques along the way.

It's All Fun!
SD

Thanks Stevie D, as always tactfully helpful. Appologies to Over-Rev if I was too pointed in our discussion.

I've raced MX-5s two weekends, had loads of fun, won a race and lost another to Revere by less than a car length and we won together in a 90 min race. We still want to do a longer enduro in a MX-5 or Spec Miata, so I do appreciate what they have to offer, but it's certainly different from Formula Cars.

Vive la differance!

[OverRev]

Hey Gang,
Gotta love the forums where the people actually really do care about the discussions enough to do there homework!

As for the lap time comparison, The Formula Car is definitley quicker, But for the average first timer 3 day student the lap times are pretty close. Keep in mind Im referring to the School car not the series car.

I mentioned Alex Barron in reference to your "a good formula car guy could get into an MX-5 and be faster than the norm MX-5 guy".

Stevie D is right, There is a big who's better Formula Car or Sporty Cars debate and there always will be. My point was, I've been racing sports cars for the past few years on a regular basis and feel like a competent driver. So if your theory behind a guy getting out of the formula cars should be better than the normal sports car guy than I would expect Mr. Barron to be beating us up pretty badly. Now I think Alex Barron is a hell of a shoe and expect him before not to long to be as fast as anybody out there. But he'll still struggle like the rest of us to beat the Lallys and Pumpellys of the world.

like Steve said both Formula Cars and Sports Cars are challenging and to get the maximum amount out of both is quite difficult. Thanks for the congrats on the Koni race, We had no motor so we should be alot more competitive at Lime Rock!

Off to bed, MX-5 Race at Road Atlanta this weekend!

Thanks for the good discussion!
Ryan Eversley

[John Greist]

A few further points for this discussion.

The last time I know School cars and RT-2000s were on the track at the same time was in a 2003 Sebring Memorial. The RTs with "wings" were marginally quicker in 1 and 17, but we flew past them on the straights and overall lap times were the same. School cars started behind the RTs and we got past a bunch of the RTs. Spencer Pumpelly was driving a school car - by choice. They are the better teaching tool and more fun to drive and race, and cheaper to build and maintain (Hewland's and no wings cheaper initially, no wing crash damage and fewer transmission rebuilds re. maintenance), but I'm agaiin beating a very dead horse. I have offered to buy a school car or two when the new Formula car displaces them, but won't buy an RT at any price. Several have suggested racing the two versions in Memorials at RA, LR, Sebring and Laguna where they both live, but that would mean tuning the school cars and the comparison, with school cars in competent hands, is not a marketing friendly idea.

Looks like Alex may have had the same engine builder for the Koni as his 997 was .2 slower than Ryan's.

[OverRev]

Good Afternoon Gentleman!
Marcus Motorsports has engines prepped by Autometrics. So all three of our cars were within half a second of each other. The car I was driving is actually owned by Michael Auriemma and John Mayes who some of you know. Im not sure who builds BGB's engines but Craig Stanton, Alex Barrons teammate in the other car with Tim Traver seemed to be able to get the car down to a 2:01.586 to Alex's 2:02.875 still not far off for the first race. I think it should be a fun year!

Cheers,
Ryan

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by badgersid

Harsha my friend the further back in the pack you are the more people to watch and learn from. miss you hope to see you soon
sid

Thanks Sid. I know who my friends are. Hope to see you in Sebring this week.

(Viz, you can still be my friend.)

[GriffDogRacer]

Mr. Grinch - I'm sure the testimony below is enough to get you moving, but I'll add a bit more. I did the three day school in the formula car at Road Atlanta in October... had a blast and learned a ton in short order. I read the book, "Going Faster" first and found that helpful in understanding the basics. I went straight from there to Sebring last week (lapping, adv car control, practice and race weekend - i.e. full immersion) and made the leap with no issues... and, for the record, I have a few gray hairs as well. Good luck. Dump the clutch and let it rip!

[John Greist]

On book recommendations: Along with Carl's Going Faster, I really like Carroll Smith's Drive to Win. Immediately approachable, but also an onion that peels easily to new levels of understanding with each reading.