Stepneygate - Fantasy F1 point

[Jisu Kim]

If McLaren are found guilty by the FIA and drivers/team are suspended/docked points, do you think our Fantasy F1 points ought to be adjusted accordingly?

Just curious.

[WatertownNewbie]

Jisu, you raise an interesting issue. My general sense is that because we are using the official results for each race to tally our points, whatever the official results for a race are will determine each person's tally. If points in a specific race are adjusted by FIA, then each person's total for that race gets adjusted accordingly. On the other hand, if FIA assesses a general penalty of $xxx and yyy points lost and does not assign the points to a specific race, then it becomes harder to allocate points to a person. My general sense then is to leave things as they are. (By the way, all of these comments are made without my first looking into whether my own picks would be affected, and my comments apply to any future similar situation too in case anyone wants to bring them back to haunt me.)

[macdod]

I would suggest doing an internet sweep to see what other Fantasy games are doing in this regard and pick the one that seemsto be the least disruptive and fair. if their seems to be no "good" solution out there we may want to come up with one of our own such as the ability to drop races that are included in our tally's.

But financial fines are definetly NOT on the table : )

[Rosso]

Stare Decisis. Nah, let it ride the way it is. Changing the rules mid season is almost always a bad idea. Let the points be awarded the way the drivers cross the finish line. If you toss McL it then becomes a one-team Ferrari exhibition. If you want to make it interesting, toss BOTH McL and Ferrari for the rest of the season!

[Jisu Kim]

Hot off the press:


No penalties for McLaren in spy hearing

By Biranit Goren Thursday, July 26th 2007, 13:56 GMT


The FIA World Motor Sport Council have found McLaren guilty of possession of unauthorised Ferrari documents, but with no evidence that the team had made use of the information, the governing body elected not to punish McLaren for now.

The WMSC said, however, that if in the future evidence would be found to show that McLaren had used the information, they will be called back and face severe penalties, including exclusion from the world championship.

The full verdict and more details to follow...

[WatertownNewbie]

Well, the fat lady hasn't sung yet ....

'Spygate' verdict goes to appeal court Tuesday, 31, July, 2007, 17:16

The FIA has referred the verdict of the McLaren and Ferrari spying case to its Court of Appeal following a request by the Italian motorsport commission (CSAI).

For the whole story, go to http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40211.

[WatertownNewbie]

Originally Posted by WatertownNewbie

My general sense is that because we are using the official results for each race to tally our points, whatever the official results for a race are will determine each person's tally. ... (By the way, all of these comments are made without my first looking into whether my own picks would be affected, and my comments apply to any future similar situation too in case anyone wants to bring them back to haunt me.)

And now, by virtue of the pit lane antics of Fernando during yesterday's qualifying, several of us appear to lose our McLaren points from this morning's race.

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by WatertownNewbie

And now, by virtue of the pit lane antics of Fernando during yesterday's qualifying, several of us appear to lose our McLaren points from this morning's race.

Obviously as of today I'm not a neutral observer, but even if I were not, I would still think that for the purposes of this contest Sy should award points based on the way the cars cross the finish line, without regard for any punitive action by the FIA before or after the fact. Besides, all of the FIA decisions are open to internal and litigative appeal after the fact. Stare Decisis.

[cdh]

sooooooooo LOL

[Jisu Kim]

Holy Smokes, just in:

McLaren lose 2007 points, fined $100m

By Steve Cooper and Jonathan Noble Thursday, September 13th 2007, 18:06 GMT


McLaren-Mercedes have lost their constructors' championship points for the 2007 season and will pay a record fine of $100 million USD, the FIA World Motor Sport Council decided today.

McLaren have not commented on the decision and said they will hold a press conference later this evening.

After a day-long hearing at the Paris headquarters of the governing body, the WMSC has decided to penalise the Woking-based outfit for breach of the sporting regulation due to their part in the spying affair against Ferrari.

The council ruled that McLaren will be excluded from the 2007 constructors' championship points standing, but the drivers retain their points scored so far and will not be affected in the drivers' championship.

Furthermore, McLaren have been awarded a fine of $100 million USD - by far the largest fine ever imposed in motor racing.

Additionally, the WMSC said they will analyse the McLaren-Mercedes car entered to the 2008 world championship later this year to decide what sanctions, if any, should be applied on the team in next year's championship.

Asked if justice had been done, the president of the FIA Max Mosley said "Yes".

The full statement by the FIA

In an extraordinary meeting of the World Motor Sport Council was held in Paris on the 12th of September 2007, The following decision was taken:

"The WMSC has stripped Vodafone McLaren Mercedes of all constructors' points in the 2007 FIA Formula One World Championshiop an the team can score no point for the remainder of the season *.

"Furthermore, the team will pay a fine equal to 100 million dollar, less the FOM income lost as a result of the points deduction.

"However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points **.

"The WMSC will receive a full technical report on the 2008 McLaren car and will take a decision at its December 2007 meeting as to what sanction, if any, will be imposed on the team for the 2008 season."

The full reasons for this decision will be issued on the 14th September 2007.

* Points gained by other teams so far this season will not be affected.

** No McLaren representative will be allowed on the podium should a McLaren driver win in any of the remaining races of the 2007 season.

[dalyduo]

- Woof -

That's a lot of recalculation and point rejiggering for Sy...

I wonder if McLaren will withdraw from the season with both their drivers so close to the championship? (Nah...)

Ferrari must be doing a pretty animated happy dance eh?

What a soap opera

[cdh]

Holy crap, that is gigantic..........wow wow wow

[WatertownNewbie]

Disclaimer: I have not consulted the picks spreadsheet before writing this.

Regarding the rejiggering of points (for the first 13 races) and perhaps more importantly the selection of teams (as opposed to individual drivers) for the remaining 4 races, there are some things that ought to be considered in the interests of fairness to the participants. After all, none of us had any culpability with the incidents, but everyone might have been saving picks based on various reasons.

Anyway ....

It is now clear that no one will be selecting MCL. For those who already used their six MCL selections, the matter is a "so what" from that standpoint. For those who still have any such picks left, they will now pick some other team. On the other hand, there is another factor, which is that everyone would have selected some team other than MCL (even Super Aguri) had we known then what we know now. By way of illustration, consider two participants, one of whom used no MCL selections so far and the other who exhausted his supply. The second person is now in an inferior position by virtue of having preserved MCL picks that are now useless. I am not sure what remedy there might be to address the disparity created by the worthlessness of MCL picks, but it does seem to be an issue for thought.

So here are a couple of thoughts:
(a) Ignore the ban on constructors points and let everyone receive team points based on where the two drivers finish. Given that Fernando and Lewis will be driving for the overall trophy, there is no doubt that McLaren will still be competitive.

(b) Let the chips fall as they may, drop all MCL points from the Fantasy F1 charts, and go forward however we currently stand. That could be described as a "it was just racing luck" resolution.

Whatever we do, however, a decision needs to be made fairly soon. Qualifying for Spa is 8:00 am on Saturday, and we need to submit selections before then.

[cdh]

I wonder how the sports fantasy sites are going to handle it? Might be worth a visit to some other F1 games and have a look.

Ted, in your scenario, a player who used his McL picks early will lose all the points they earned - I don't see how that is a benefit in any way.
__________________________________________________ _____________________
News

Full statement from Ron Dennis:

"The most important thing is that we will be going motor racing this weekend, the rest of the season and every season. This means that our drivers can continue to compete for the World Championship. However having been at the hearing today I do not accept that we deserved to be penalised in this way.

"Today's evidence given to the FIA by our drivers, engineers and staff clearly demonstrated that we did not use any leaked information to gain a competitive advantage.

"Much has been made in the press and at the hearing today of emails and text messages to and from our drivers. The World Motorsport Council received statements from Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton and Pedro de la Rosa stating categorically that no Ferrari information had been used by McLaren and that they had not passed any confidential data to the team.

"The entire engineering team in excess of 140 people provided statements to the FIA affirming that they had never received or used the Ferrari information.

"We have never denied that the information from Ferrari was in the personal possession of one of our employees at his home. The issue is: was this information used by McLaren? This is not the case and has not been proven today.

"We are also continually asked if McLaren didn't use the information, what was the reason for Stepney and Coughlan collecting all this data about Ferrari? We can only speculate as neither Coughlan nor Stepney gave evidence at today's hearing, but we do know that they were both seeking employment with other teams, as already confirmed by both Honda and Toyota.

"There will be no issue for the 2008 season as we have not at any stage used any intellectual property of any other team.

"We have got the best drivers and the best car and we intend to win the World Championship."
__________________________________________________ ________________________
News

Ferrari satisfied with McLaren verdict (do ya really think so???? )

Ferrari said they were happy that the “truth had emerged” following Thursday’s decision by the FIA’s World Motor Sport Council to strip McLaren of constructors’ point and heavily fine them for possessing confidential data belonging to the Italian team.

“Ferrari acknowledges the decision of the FIA to sanction Vodafone McLaren Mercedes for its breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code,” said a Ferrari statement.

“In light of new evidence, facts and behaviour of an extremely serious nature and grossly prejudicial to the interest of the sport have been further demonstrated.

“Ferrari is satisfied that the truth has now emerged.”

[donv]

Originally Posted by cdh

Holy crap, that is gigantic..........wow wow wow

yes it big, especially financially, however the best thing MCL can do is go on and win. The world will still know they were the best and there will forever be an asterisk next to Ferrari's name for 2007. Unlike stick and ball there are no playoffs to be excluded from, every race will still count. As I said, financially a biggie but unless further sanctions reducing their future competitiveness are levied it is basically about $$$. And there is always the possibility of appeal.

[cdh]

Who will that $100,000,000 check be made out to anyway?

[oldredracer]

Ok. So I lose 86 points. But unlike Bernie, the mechanic's fund is going to be disappointed when my check for one hundred million dollars bounces.

[oldredracer]

Originally Posted by WatertownNewbie

Let the chips fall as they may, drop all MCL points from the Fantasy F1 charts, and go forward however we currently stand. That could be described as a "it was just racing luck" resolution.

Whatever we do, however, a decision needs to be made fairly soon. Qualifying for Spa is 8:00 am on Saturday, and we need to submit selections before then.

Isn't that what just happened to McLaren? So be it. The good news is that if we all chip in the fine will only be $52,631,573.89 apiece.

[dalyduo]

Same here...

Originally Posted by oldredracer

Ok. So I lose 86 points. But unlike Bernie, the mechanic's fund is going to be disappointed when my check for one hundred million dollars bounces.

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by WatertownNewbie

Disclaimer: I have not consulted the picks spreadsheet before writing this.

(a) Ignore the ban on constructors points and let everyone receive team points based on where the two drivers finish. Given that Fernando and Lewis will be driving for the overall trophy, there is no doubt that McLaren will still be competitive.

I vote "YES" on proposal (a). To do otherwise would unfairly penalize those participants who retained the dicipline to save their McLaren picks for the last few races.

I'd also toss in the McLaren points docked after the qualifying hissy fit a couple of weeks ago. I would score the fantasy points the way the cars cross the finish line, without regard to any post-race FIA, judical or political Gerrymandering .

What would you do if six weeks after the end of the season the FIA docked half of Ferrari's points too? By then we would have already declared a Fantasy League winner, yet Ferrari pickers would not have suffered the same penalty as the earlier McLaren pickers.

Motorsports has always been a cat-and-mouse enterprise between the constructors, engineers and the inspectors. I say, in the spirit of Smokey Yunick, may the best cheater win.

[oldredracer]

Originally Posted by Rosso

I vote "YES" on proposal (a). To do otherwise would unfairly penalize those participants who retained the dicipline to save their McLaren picks for the last few races.



Motorsports has always been a cat-and-mouse enterprise between the constructors, engineers and the inspectors. I say, in the spirit of Smokey Yunick, may the best cheater win.

Hang on a minute here. If prop B is the 'it's just racing luck' resolution, then prop A is the 'even a blind pig gets a truffle every once in a while' resolution.

The 'Smokey Yunick' resolution gets me my 86 points back and I don't have to write a check. I kinda like that.

[WatertownNewbie]

By the way, while we contemplate the impact on McLaren of a $100,000,000 fine, what is the entire racing budget this year for Super Aguri?

[cdh]

Originally Posted by WatertownNewbie

By the way, while we contemplate the impact on McLaren of a $100,000,000 fine, what is the entire racing budget this year for Super Aguri?

This is from a May 2006 article:

Business F1 magazine contends that the Woking-based outfit [McLaren-Mercedes], spending a reputed $400m a year, pips the Japanese carmaker [Toyota], at $393m to the dubious post.

Interestingly, though, Phillip Morris’ sponsorship of Ferrari, at $97m a year, amounts to more than the annual budget of any of the final three teams.

The spending per team is as follows:

• McLaren Mercedes: $400M
• Toyota: $393M
• Honda : $382M
• BMW Sauber: $378M
• Ferrari: $329M
• Renault: $300M
• Red Bull Racing: $201M
• Williams: $134
• Super Aguri: $95M
• Midland F1: $76M
• Scuderia Toro Rosso: $66M

A far cry from the late 1960s when Team Lotus won the world championship on a budget of just £220,000

[sydude]

There's no feckin' way I'm rejiggering, recalculating or re-doing any points. We are playing as if McLaren didn't get a penalty at all. Whatever their drivers get, the team gets. If there are any objections or better ideas, please internalize them.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by sydude

There's no feckin' way I'm rejiggering, recalculating or re-doing any points. We are playing as if McLaren didn't get a penalty at all. Whatever their drivers get, the team gets. If there are any objections or better ideas, please internalize them.

Originally Posted by sydude

-----
Official Rules Notice
-----
We will not be penalizing McLaren constructor points, unlike the FIA. McLaren picks will receive all the points their drivers score for each race, so keep playing as usual.

Understandable I guess....


From the Hungary GP thread

Originally Posted by sydude

Also, just FYI - I followed FIA points allocations in assigning constructor's points. If McLaren win their appeal, I will change the points retroactively.

McLaren win or not, since we are now summarily ignoring FIA penalties/sanctions and scoring on track results only, the Hungary results should be corrected (McL points were DQ'd)....OK? We can help ya with the points adjustments Sy
.

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by sydude

There's no feckin' way I'm rejiggering, recalculating or re-doing any points. We are playing as if McLaren didn't get a penalty at all. Whatever their drivers get, the team gets. If there are any objections or better ideas, please internalize them.

Amen. Points issues can drag on in the courts for months, subject to reversal by higher appellate courts. In the 133 years the Kentucky Derby has been run, the track has paid the bettors based on the first horse across the finish line 133 times, including the legendary 1933 "Fighting Finish" when the jockeys beat each other with whips during the stretch drive.



McLaren ponder appealFriday 14th September 2007

McLaren CEO Martin Whitmarsh claims that the British team will study the World Motor Sport Council's findings before launching an appeal.

On Thursday the WMSC stripped McLaren of their constructors points and fined the team an unprecedented sum of $100 million USD.

Following this announcement Whitmarsh said that McLaren believe they might have grounds to appeal. However, he explained that no decision will be taken in this regard until their legal team has studied the WMSC's findings.

"We believe we've got the grounds for an appeal," Whitmarsh said.

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by oldredracer

The 'Smokey Yunick' resolution gets me my 86 points back and I don't have to write a check. I kinda like that.

I miss Smokey.

[oldredracer]

Originally Posted by Rosso

he track has paid the bettors based on the first horse across the finish line 133 times, including the legendary 1933 "Fighting Finish" when the jockeys beat each other with whips during the stretch drive.

"Jockeys (drivers?) beating each other with whips" conjures up a whole host of intriguing images.


Or is it just me?

[cdh]

Originally Posted by oldredracer

"Jockeys (drivers?) beating each other with whips" conjures up a whole host of intriguing images.
Or is it just me?

Reminds me of Keith Duke Chester the Lasso Kid Watts

I understand there is talk that the "Lasso" is illegal and there will be points and monetary penalties.

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by oldredracer

"Jockeys (drivers?) beating each other with whips" conjures up a whole host of intriguing images.


Or is it just me?

[cdh]

Can't have it both ways - so Sy, to help out, here are the players that picked McLaren for Hungary:

WatertownNewbie
angelos49
macdod
chsutherland
juicyjules
fitilepeach
cdh
Rosso
dalyduo

McLaren finished P1 (Hamilton) and P4 (Alonso) - anything else I can do to help get the scores right let me know.
.

[cdh]

We need MS back for this reason.........

[WatertownNewbie]

Hi Sy,

Doug supplied the names of those who selected McLaren for the Hungary race. Here are their names along with the revised point amounts that need to be inserted in the respective spreadsheet cells:

WatertownNewbie ---- 44
angelos49 ---- 24
macdod ---- 34
chsutherland ---- 44
juicyjules ---- 26
fitilepeach ---- 32
cdh ---- 26
Rosso ---- 21
dalyduo ---- 24

Thanks on behalf of all those affected.

[chsutherland]

Nice, should change up the points a bit.

[cdh]

Sy, please let us know what is happening in our F1 game and what I can do to help.
Need to know your decision.....thanks bub.

World Motor Sport Council
Decision
Re: Article 151(c) International Sporting Code – Vodafone McLaren
Mercedes
13 September 2007

The full ruling - PDF

.

[oldredracer]

Originally Posted by Rosso

I guess I was going in another direction, but... yeah.

[oldredracer]

Perhaps I'm too subtile. Just in case...McLaren loses it's points. We lose ours. End of case. The 'foresight' to delay McLaren picks just in case the team happens to have all of it's points taken away due to the theft of intellectual property??????? Give me a break.

[cdh]

WTF is happening with our F1 Fantasy points???? Need decision.

[dalyduo]

We should have those points back Sy and, as listed, most of the work has been done already. Just change the spreadsheet.

Originally Posted by cdh

WTF is happening with our F1 Fantasy points???? Need decision.

[sydude]

How can I make any change without pissing half of you off? Everything has been thrown up in the air and all of the pre-established guidelines are no longer valid. The decision I made for the single race McLaren disqualification was that you could have your points back if McLaren won the appeal for that infraction.

Then McLaren went and commited an entirely different violation (and on a massively different scale) and got itself disqualified for the entire season. And in the interest of the sport (this game) we all readily agreed to ignore the FIA's ruling to throw out all of McLaren's Constructors Championship points, as it would have generally harmed everyone equally and substantially.

But then some of you guys want me to go and give McLaren points for a race that they were disqualified and never won an appeal for (as agreed), just because we decided not to throw out ALL of McLaren's prior and future points, which we did so the rest of the game won't suck. The decision we made after the last violation was that we wouldn't strip McLaren of any previously earned points, not re-instate points that were never earned.

I need better reasons than what you've provided to make a change.

[WatertownNewbie]

Originally Posted by sydude

But then some of you guys want me to go and give McLaren points for a race that they were disqualified and never won an appeal for (as agreed), just because we decided not to throw out ALL of McLaren's prior and future points, which we did so the rest of the game won't suck.

The unfortunate thing we will never know is whether the first appeal would have reinstated the Hungary points. By deciding not to pursue an appeal of the larger penalty of the entire season of constructor points, McLaren made moot the issue of the Hungary points.

The apparent spirit of the decision to ignore the constructor's championship ruling was to recognize that the participants in this fantasy thing were essentially innocent bystanders in the way of a train wreck. In some respects, the points were "earned" by virtue of the finishing places of the two McLaren drivers in Hungary. If at this stage we are looking solely at where drivers finished in races, then that seems relevant.

Whatever ultimately is done (and perhaps it has already been done), this Fantasy F1 competiiton should remain fun. We have three races to go, and there is still room for shuffling the order. May the Mechanics Fund win!

[oldredracer]

Originally Posted by WatertownNewbie

...Whatever ultimately is done (and perhaps it has already been done), this Fantasy F1 competiiton should remain fun. We have three races to go, and there is still room for shuffling the order. May the Mechanics Fund win!

I'm for matching our points to the FIA's but WN has the bottom line. Sy, what with the job you're doin' here and all I'll go with whatever you decide.

[dalyduo]

Sy,

The simple answer is... It brings into question your integrity, honesty and fairness as a leader...

As the moderator you set the standard of integrity and fairness of the game. If you arbitrarily change the rules during the game and those changes net you more points and improve your position your integrity is in question whether your intent was to improve your position or not.

If you are going to follow the FIA ruling and not allow constructor points taken away at the Hungary race then you have to be consistent and follow the subsequent ruling and remove all McLaren constructor points from all of the races so that it affects everyone equally.

Conversely, if you are going to ignore the recent FIA ruling and count constructor points for the season you need to ignore the earlier ruling as well because it selectively punishes those who chose McLaren that week. It happens that you chose Ferrari in Hungary so choosing to go with the FIA ruling worked in your favor.

Restoring the Hungary points, given your choice to ignore the subsequent FIA ruling, would be the right and consistant thing to do.

BTW... The only people pissed off here are those who lost their Hungary McLaren points.

PS. You're not contending at this point (nor am I) so why not do the right thing? It would allow all of us to see the standings based on where the cars actually finished rather than FIA political ranking.

[macdod]

Hi Sy,

Hope all is well. Sorry I haven't called recently.

I did a search of the web of F1 fantasy games and the survey is somewhat inconclusive. Some games are ignoring the FIA and some are choosing to not award any more points for McLaren (beginning in Belgium) based on the FIA ruling. Interestingly no sites I found planned for team disqualifications, although some did for driver disqualifications. But given this is a fantasy game (although I would like to go on the record that I don't personnaly fantasize about anyone in the sport myself) it's not surprising that the rules did not anticipate the present situation (clearly a statistical outlier).

That said whatever you do should be consistent and err on the side of actual "on track" performance. Such was the case with Indy in 2005. Fantasy games are there to "remove us" from the imperfect human condition that subjects sports fans to the unprofessional behavior of the likes of Floyd Landis, Barry Bonds, Michael Vick, Nigel Stephey, etc. etc. etc.

Hope this helps.

[wbs]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

Restoring the Hungary points, given your choice to ignore the subsequent FIA ruling, would be the right and constent thing to do.

Sy, I remember your emailing me concerning my first entry this season, saying that I couldn't pick and choose which of the tier 2 drivers I wanted after I got the rules wrong and included three tier 2 drivers.

It doesn't make sense to be inconsistent with the FIA rulings, as the decision to remove McLaren's constructor points for the Hungarian pit lane antics seemed at least as questionable as the seasonwide ban later imposed. My inclination would be to strike all McLaren points, as this game was supposed to follow FIA points, with no discretion concerning which FIA decisions the game would follow. Anyone who thinks that's unfair can go tell it to Ron Dennis. But short of that, then you really have to ignore ALL FIA point penalties, as to pick and choose, especially in a way that benefits you, is open to all kind of speculation.

[cdh]

OK, let's find out - who would be pissed off if the Hungary points are reinstated? No poll, not needed.

Anyone who would be pissed off if the McL points are reinstated say Sy...oops, I meant Aye.

I think you already know who will be (or is) pissed off with the points being tossed. Please note, I have no chance of doing well in the game, it means nothing for my standing, I am no threat, it is the principle...or lack thereof.

BUT, it's your ball, you can play with it as you please.

Hungary? (damn, no sleep really brings out the best in me huh)?

[sydude]

After receiving convincing arguments and compensation from certain McLaren beneficiaries, it is clearly obvious to me that the correct solution is to reinstate McLaren points for Hungary. So please don't dare question my integrity, honesty and fairness again.

[dalyduo]

Thank you master...

Promise not to question your integrity, honesty or fairness ever again...

(Check's in the mail )

Originally Posted by sydude

After receiving convincing arguments and compensation from certain McLaren beneficiaries, it is clearly obvious to me that the correct solution is to reinstate McLaren points for Hungary. So please don't dare question my integrity, honesty and fairness again.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by sydude

After receiving convincing arguments and compensation from certain McLaren beneficiaries, it is clearly obvious to me that the correct solution is to reinstate McLaren points for Hungary. So please don't dare question my integrity, honesty and fairness again.

you know we love ya Sy......sorry about my post, whoa, waaaay to crabby, even for me. Thanks for running the game, TJR, etc.

Now....about your integrity, honesty and fairness

you da man