The Isaac® Head and Neck Restraint System Discussion Thread

[kwlorentzen]

I was just introduced to another Head and Neck Restraint system and thought I'ld share it with everyone....my buddy has done some research on different systems and feels this is the best one. It looks prety good to me too, so take a look www.isaacdirect.com . I'm not sure if it can be used in the skippy cars where we'll have to remove it each weekend or not. Maby this is the way for the school to go!?

[dalyduo]

In an open cockpit crash or rollover, strange things can happen. I've looked over their material and I'd be uncomfortable with loose shock absorber pistons near my head and neck in our open cockpit racecars. I also don't like the idea of having my helmet attached directly to the car's shoulder belts. In addition, there is a lot of hardware that could get loose, lost or misassembled in the adrenaline rush of pre-race preparations. I like the simple elegance of the HANS design.

I find it odd that their rental program involves using the device with double face tape to hold the hardware on your helmet. They want you to test the device at speed but do it in a way that defeats the function of the device?? HHmmm.

It also appears to be impossible to hook up the Isaac without external help, as opposed to the HANS which is comparatively easy to engage by yourself.

Personally, I like the way the HANS device secures me under the shoulder belts, and having crash tested mine into the LRP downhill tire wall at speed I can testify that the only parts of me that were not seriously sore after the impact were my head and neck!

The HANS device is a strong simple safe design that works and that's my preference. However, that's just one opinion and everyone should investigate the options and make their own informed choice.

[cdh]

I so agree DD, the Isaac looks downright scary, no thanks. Form Follows Function, and as you say, the design of the HANS is engineering elegance.

On your statement "Personally, I like the way the HANS device secures me under the shoulder belts, and having crash tested mine into the LRP downhill tire wall at speed I can testify that the only parts of me that were not seriously sore after the impact were my head and neck!"

That got me thinking of a Photoshop of a HANABALAAS - Head and Neck and Body and Legs and Arms Support device

If I ever finish the edit I'm working on I will play with it.

Also, GMAN, excuse my morbid curiosity but was there a camera on the roll over (was being the operative word)?
.

[gman]

thanks for the feedback and yes there was a camera. based on previous experiences, the cameras usually shut down at the moment of impact, but we will see what happens in a week or two when i get the dvd.

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

...I find it odd that their rental program involves using the device with double face tape to hold the hardware on your helmet. They want you to test the device at speed but do it in a way that defeats the function of the device?? HHmmm.

The driver has the option of permanently or temporarily afixing the mounts to the helmet.

It also appears to be impossible to hook up the Isaac without external help, as opposed to the HANS which is comparatively easy to engage by yourself.

Most Isaac users can attach both sides, unassisted, in 15-30 seconds.

The Isaac was first used in a Barber car in 2002.

[dalyduo]

Thanks for the clarification Mr. Baker.

1.) Would it be correct to assume that being able to do an unassisted quick connect requires some pre-installation and assisted adjustments to the shoulder belt and helmet hardware?

2.) How much transition time would be required to jump from a car you have pre-installed the hardware on, to another car without pre-installed and adjusted hardware?

During a recent lapping session a mechanical problem forced a quick move from one car to another. This was not an issue with the HANS device.

Thanks,

Pat Daly

Originally Posted by gbaker

The driver has the option of permanently or temporarily afixing the mounts to the helmet.


Most Isaac users can attach both sides, unassisted, in 15-30 seconds.

The Isaac was first used in a Barber car in 2002.

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

Thanks for the clarification Mr. Baker.

Pat,

Anytime.

1.) Would it be correct to assume that being able to do an unassisted quick connect requires some pre-installation and assisted adjustments to the shoulder belt and helmet hardware?

No adjustments are necessary, but the damper assembly must be connected to the belt. Most drivers simply leave it in the car. The helmet mount is fixed, i.e. a rigid component attached to the helmet via SS hardware or binary adhesive, so there is no adjustment involved there. A good photo is here: http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Users/NL1.JPG

Other photos can be found via the "Other Pages" link at the top banner.

2.) How much transition time would be required to jump from a car you have pre-installed the hardware on, to another car without pre-installed and adjusted hardware?

If quick release pins are used, probably no more than 60 seconds per car for a formula car. It can be difficult working inside a closed-cockpit stock car or similar vehicle given head surrounds and netting, so that may take longer. Interesting question; we've never timed it.

During a recent lapping session a mechanical problem forced a quick move from one car to another. This was not an issue with the HANS device.

One of our customers is a stock car racing school where all school cars are Isaac equipped and students are supplied helmets. If the students bring their own helmet/H&N restraint the Isaac's are removed with the QR pins.

[MJAmok]

We've got to be joking right?


At first I said, "hmm... mini shock absorbers. Brilliant. Looks relatively simple. I'm skeptical, but willing to learn more."

Then I hear that they recommend and even encourage temporary installation with double sided tape?! No wait, that's "binary adhesive"... must be more expensive. Give me a break.

Wait a minute... if the "binary adhesive" is so godamn good... just give me some of that. I'll put it on the back of my helmet. We all know it's coming just before we wreck. Just before impact, I'll press my head back against the head rest. Problem solved!

No, no, wait. How about Crazy Glue?! That is even stronger than double sided tape. In fact, I once saw a guy on TV turn his whole room upside down! One $2 bottle of that stuff, we glue everybody's head to the head rest and we're done!

[gbaker]

Now, that's funny.

[gman]

How bout Velcro

[gbaker]

Duct tape?

[dalyduo]

Gregg,

I can see the ease of use in a school environment where ownership has made your device the standard by providing all cars with damper assemblies and helmets with attached mounts.

However, in the SBRS racing environment there is no requirement for head restraints, racers provide their own devices, and racecars are shared by 2 or more drivers on any given lapping, practice or racing day. Therefore using the Issac would require installation and removal of the damper assemblies before and after every single run.
I'm not suggesting it couldn't be done, but it would certainly be a greater inconvenience than that of a HANS device.

I admire your courage in sending off rental kits with double face tape for people to temporarily "test" the fit of your product, but it would seem to me only a matter of time and human nature before someone screws up big time and crash tests the adhesive limits of double face tape with their neck. (Though I certainly hope I'm mistaken about that.)

I'm also not comfortable with the option allowing the helmet hardware to be attached only with aerospace adhesive, even if that adhesive is stronger than bolts through the shell itself. On this point it's not about the strength of the adhesive, its about the notion that a mistake in the application or curing process might never be known until a failure at the ultimate moment of need. There is no way to truly test the bond and that is unsettling.

I do like those over-sized attachment bolts on my helmet for the Hans device because I can check them for tightness and easily see if they're damaged.

While playing devil's advocate today I also applaud your effort to build a better restraint that hopefully saves racers lives and wish you good luck.

Pat

Originally Posted by gbaker

Pat,

Anytime.

No adjustments are necessary, but the damper assembly must be connected to the belt. Most drivers simply leave it in the car. The helmet mount is fixed, i.e. a rigid component attached to the helmet via SS hardware or binary adhesive, so there is no adjustment involved there.

If quick release pins are used, probably no more than 60 seconds per car for a formula car. It can be difficult working inside a closed-cockpit stock car or similar vehicle given head surrounds and netting, so that may take longer. Interesting question; we've never timed it.


One of our customers is a stock car racing school where all school cars are Isaac equipped and students are supplied helmets. If the students bring their own helmet/H&N restraint the Isaac's are removed with the QR pins.

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

Gregg,

I can see the ease of use in a school environment where ownership has made your device the standard by providing all cars with damper assemblies and helmets with attached mounts.

However, in the SBRS racing environment there is no requirement for head restraints, racers provide their own devices, and racecars are shared by 2 or more drivers on any given lapping, practice or racing day. Therefore using the Issac would require installation and removal of the damper assemblies before and after every single run.
I'm not suggesting it couldn't be done, but it would certainly be a greater inconvenience than that of a HANS device.

Pat,

I was unclear. The setting at the schools where Isaac systems are used is identical to the SBRS environment you describe, i.e. head and neck restraints are not required and many students bring their own helmets and H&N restraints. These are two-seater cars where the instructors switch from the driver's seat to the passenger's seat, moving the Isaac systems as needed. The students are typically on track for no more than five minutes.

It's an extra step, sure, but it eliminates the fit and cost issues of a HANS device for each driver. We have endurance teams with drivers using a variety of H&N restraints, or none. The Isaac system is either removed if not needed, or flipped over the seat back and ignored.

I admire your courage in sending off rental kits with double face tape for people to temporarily "test" the fit of your product, but it would seem to me only a matter of time and human nature before someone screws up big time and crash tests the adhesive limits of double face tape with their neck. (Though I certainly hope I'm mistaken about that.)

The tape's limit is about eight pounds, and drivers are made aware of the risk they accept if they chose to use the tape. If this risk is unacceptable, they can use SS nuts and bolts.

HANS customers do the same thing (use tape for trial), but the company does not assist them in this regard and rarely, if ever, will provide a refund if the driver is not satisfied.

I'm also not comfortable with the option allowing the helmet hardware to be attached only with aerospace adhesive, even if that adhesive is stronger than bolts through the shell itself.

It is stronger than the shell itself, and bolts weaken the shell.

On this point it's not about the strength of the adhesive, its about the notion that a mistake in the application or curing process might never be known until a failure at the ultimate moment of need. There is no way to truly test the bond and that is unsettling.

This is an excellent point, and one already considered. We conducted nearly fifty laboratory tests measuring such variables as surface prep condition and bondline thickness for several high-performance adhesives.

I do like those over-sized attachment bolts on my helmet for the Hans device because I can check them for tightness and easily see if they're damaged.

No maintenance is required for adhesives.

For a school setting, the choice would be adhesive if minimum maintenance were an issue, or bolts if low-tech made everyone feel better. Either one works fine. If the issue is risk management, the idea of blowing a hole through a helmet and voiding its Snell certification, then installing a piece of hardware requirng yet another maintenance log is not very appealing.

While playing devil's advocate today I also applaud your effort to build a better restraint that hopefully saves racers lives and wish you good luck.

Thank you.

[Lost in N. VA]

Mr. Baker: Since this has turned into a full-fledged Isaac marketing thread, I'd ask that you respond to the following quotes cited on the HANS Device web site (citing the March 2004 issue of VINTAGE MOTORSPORT):

Dr. John Melvin (a well known safety expert): "The Isaac is effective at reducing neck tension but it is ineffective at reducing head motion. A group who viewed a video of the Isaac being sled tested let out a "collective gasp" because of the unusual and violent helmet motion that occurred."

Tom Gideon (Director of Safety for GM Racing) and John Melvin: "Placing steel rods (referring to the Isaac design) so close to the driver's head and neck seems like an unsound idea."

I may have missed it on your site, but I'd would like to see video of the sled test to judge for myself.

Also, what about SFI 38.1 certification?

Thanks,
Fuent

[kwlorentzen]

Perhaps this page from their site will help us all understand how the Isaacs system works. It's easy to miss when you're looking around, so I have included it here.

http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/Gearheads.html

and then this to follow that one too (this one's easy to find after the first one)

http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/MathAddicts.html

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by Lost in N. VA

Mr. Baker: Since this has turned into a full-fledged Isaac marketing thread,

Fuent,

I must have missed that part. This thread began with a concern about Barber providing head and neck protection in the most effective manner possible, consistent with the wishes of the participants.

I'd ask that you respond to the following quotes cited on the HANS Device web site (citing the March 2004 issue of VINTAGE MOTORSPORT):

Dr. John Melvin (a well known safety expert): "The Isaac is effective at reducing neck tension but it is ineffective at reducing head motion. A group who viewed a video of the Isaac being sled tested let out a "collective gasp" because of the unusual and violent helmet motion that occurred."

Tom Gideon (Director of Safety for GM Racing) and John Melvin: "Placing steel rods (referring to the Isaac design) so close to the driver's head and neck seems like an unsound idea."

See subsequent editions for my response to the editor.

I may have missed it on your site, but I'd would like to see video of the sled test to judge for myself.

Why? Head loads are not evident on videos.

Also, what about SFI 38.1 certification?

38.1 is not a big hit by today's standards (68Gs). Our next hit will probably be the 100G sled.

Thanks,
Fuent

Anytime.

[Lost in N. VA]

Originally Posted by gbaker

Why? Head loads are not evident on videos.

Call me crazy, but I'd prefer that the head and neck restraint I decide to trust my life upon not allow "unusual and violent helmet motion" - head loads notwithstanding.

Originally Posted by gbaker

38.1 is not a big hit by today's standards (68Gs). Our next hit will probably be the 100G sled.

I apologize for not presenting my inquiry more clearly. Can and will the Isaac obtain SFI 38.1 certification? Why hasn't it already done so?

[sydude]

I've moved all of the posts that regard the Isaac® system into it's own thread, which I think it deserves.

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by Lost in N. VA

Call me crazy, but I'd prefer that the head and neck restraint I decide to trust my life upon not allow "unusual and violent helmet motion" - head loads notwithstanding.

The issue of helmet motion John noted was a new one, so the lab reviewed crash test videos of various products from an identical sled. This, or similar, helmet motion occurs regardless of the H&N restraint product; it even occurs in the absence any product. I doubt John would make that comment today, a least with respect to the Isaac system exclusively.

I apologize for not presenting my inquiry more clearly. Can and will the Isaac obtain SFI 38.1 certification?

Yes, it can, and it will when we choose to do the paperwork. It is a business decision; it has little if anything to do with safety. More details are here: http://www.isaacdirect.com/SFI.html.

Why hasn't it already done so?

There are bigger fish to fry.

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by MJAmok

The Grand Am series requires a HANS device, so I borrowed MacDod's. I wore it on the test day and in the race. The race found me in the car for nearly an hour and a half. The HANS was fine. No discomfort. Barely knew it was there.

So, I went to Laguna and decided to test the HANS in a Skippy car. I HATED it. I hated every minute of life strapped into a car with a HANS. I can't believe no one else has complained about this before.

At first, I cranked down on the harnesses so hard that the HANS really dug into my shoulders. It was brutal. So painful in fact, that my arms started to get numb. It was bad before I left the pits, but I figured that like so many other factors (cold, heat, hunger, an urge to pee, etc) it would go away while I was on the track. No such luck.

On the second stint, I tightened the belts just enough that the HANS didn't hurt. After a few laps, the belts slid off the device. Since this was as good as wearing nothing, I came in and had the mechanics strap me down again. The pain was back and I struggled to finish the session.

Next, someone told me the trick was to cross the shoulder harness buckles where they connect to the anti-submarine belt. Thinking this would help, I again tried to keep the belts "just tight enough". The damn things slipped off again.

1 last try... criss cross the harnesses and crank down. Ouch, I swear this was the most uncomfortable thing I have done to my body in a race car.

BTW... I tried pulling the "legs" all the way down in the front, pushing them all the way back, and one or two steps in between. None of this worked.

I raced in the D-cel. I still love it. Say what you like about the foolish looks. That isn't the point. Say that NASCAR has banned the D-cel... in actuality their press release said they just haven't approved it.... they plan to test it in the future. Besides, we don't do 200mph. HANS' own tests show the D-cel to reduce loads to below injury threshold.

Add to that, the stabilization of the neck during normal driving and side impacts, and you have a winner. A few posts above give the HANS credit for helping in side impacts. Sorry guys, ask HANS, they only protect you against front loading.

Will I try it again? Sure. Why not. But if it performs the same way... I'll stick with my D-cel.

In the meantime, I'd welcome advice or input from anyone that has suggestions. I'll also have both devices at VIR... I wouldn't mind continuing this "conversation" in person.

I suggest you try an Isaac system at VIR.

Here is what you can expect: http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/OtherPages/Videos.html

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by MJAmok

As for the Isaac, you can refer to my previous posts...

Just to make sure we get this right...

You absolutely, positively hate the HANS in a Skippy car, but would be happy to try it again. Yet you would never try an Isaac system, which you have never tried.

http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/OtherPages/Videos.html

[MJAmok]

I personally hate a device which has been proven to be effective, is the standard in the industry, and does not bother the vast majority of my competitors. Plus, it doesn't bother me at all in a Grand Am Car.

Further, I am perfectly happy with the alternative device that I currently use, which has also proven (in personal experience) to be effecvtive.

So, would I be willing to try HANS again to assure that I gave it a fair trial? Yes. Does that mean I ought to also try a new, and as yet untested device? Especially as that one does not pass the "smell test"? Certainly not.

Sorry. But, thanks for asking.

[kwlorentzen]

Originally Posted by MJAmok

I personally hate a device which has been proven to be effective, is the standard in the industry, and does not bother the vast majority of my competitors. Plus, it doesn't bother me at all in a Grand Am Car.

Further, I am perfectly happy with the alternative device that I currently use, which has also proven (in personal experience) to be effecvtive.

So, would I be willing to try HANS again to assure that I gave it a fair trial? Yes. Does that mean I ought to also try a new, and as yet untested device? Especially as that one does not pass the "smell test"? Certainly not.

Sorry. But, thanks for asking.

Playing Devils advocate here; what is your "smell test"? Seems to me that their have been plenty of positive results from actual race incidents, and before that, laboratory testing such that the device has prooven it's effectiveness.

But on the other hand, people become comfortable with what they like/use for many many different reasons.

[macdod]

Michael,

Have you been smelling my HANS again?

[dalyduo]

Anyone interested should go read this thread in the "Instructions, Race Tracks and Equipment" forum and see all kinds of considerations about a device that is not yet proven in the marketplace.

The Isaac® Head and Neck Restraint System Discussion Thread

Clearly Mr. Baker, with kwlorentzen as an advocate, is heavily invested in this project and wants us to try it.

He may have built the better mousetrap but until his device is embraced as a valid safe alternative to the standard of the industry by other mainstream forms of racing, it is hard to see his persistant marketing as anything more than financially motivated hype to gain a market foothold. Kind of a catch-22.

When it comes to being a crash test dummy for a new safety product... we're a tough sell, and we should be!

Originally Posted by kwlorentzen

Playing Devils advocate here; what is your "smell test"? Seems to me that their have been plenty of positive results from actual race incidents, and before that, laboratory testing such that the device has prooven it's effectiveness.

But on the other hand, people become comfortable with what they like/use for many many different reasons.

[kwlorentzen]

Just wanted to clarify that I almost deleted my post after I posted it. I knew this thread was discussing the HANS device and I didn't want to further extend any off topic discussion. I did end up leaving it in as a point of inquiry.

I'm not advocating really that anyone should change from from the decice they currently use, but personally I think the ISSACS is more appealing.

Just my two cents.

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

...not yet proven in the marketplace...

Ah, I think I see the problem. You are viewing this as a marketing issue. Because it uses newer technology it has been on the market for less time, therefore fewer are in use, therefore it must be inferior. Sort of like the light bulb when it was first invented. "This can't possibly work, I dont' know anyone who uses it."

I'm an engineer, not a salesman. I am concerned with the product kicking butt in the crash lab and at the track. The late majority eventually give up their kerosene lamps.

Clearly Mr. Baker, with kwlorentzen as an advocate, is heavily invested in this project and wants us to try it.

An open-minded person would want to try it. Since a close-minded person could not provide unbiased feedback, we do not encourage them to give it a whirl.

(Actually, I am heavily invested in structural implants for neurological and orthopaedic surgeons.)

...financially motivated hype...

This is amusing. Do you honestly believe anyone is going to make money serving some Mickey Mouse $5MM racing market, compared to a $15B implant market?

...we're a tough sell...

Nah. Brain surgeons, now those guys are a tough sell.

[gbaker]

"Better at sex than anyone...all I need is a partner."

Cute. Where do the adults play?

[MJAmok]

First things first Baker... based on your last two posts, you have proven at least one point. You may (or may not) be an engineer, but you are certainly not a salesman.

Sincerely,

One closed-minded, late adopting, skeptic.

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by MJAmok

First things first Baker... based on your last two posts, you have proven at least one point. You may (or may not) be an engineer, but you are certainly not a salesman.

Sincerely,

One closed-minded, late adopting, skeptic.

Thank you.

Now that we've established that, let's get back to your "smell test."

Gregg Registered-Professional-Engineer-#11671 Baker

[dalyduo]

Originally Posted by gbaker

(Ah, I think I see the problem. You are viewing this as a marketing issue. Because it uses newer technology it has been on the market for less time, therefore fewer are in use, therefore it must be inferior. Sort of like the light bulb when it was first invented. "This can't possibly work, I dont' know anyone who uses it.")

Not at all Mr. Baker. We just don't have an infinite amount of time and money to evaluate every new idea that comes along. As I said before, you may have built the better mouse trap but until it turns up in professional circumstances as a viable alternative, I'm going to be skeptical, not because it isn't good but because I don't have time to give it due dilligence and don't know enough others who have. As a part time racer I'm not going to put my life at risk with an uproven technology.

(I'm an engineer, not a salesman. I am concerned with the product kicking butt in the crash lab and at the track. The late majority eventually give up their kerosene lamps.)

Great! You may be an engineer first but you also present yourself here as the champion promoter of this product. Sy Sperling sold a lot of "Hair Club for Men" memberships by showing a picture of his hairless pate at the end of his commercials to validate himself. Lots of people loved it and others saw it as cheesy self promotion.

Since I don't know you from Adam, the fact that your an engineer could be completely validating or a smoke screen to give your strong promotion some validation. I'm not making either assumption, but when the guy who designs the product is also the biggest promoter of the product there is an automatic conflict of interest that is hard to evaluate from the outside. If your product was the standard of the industry and Mr. HANS showed up with his device this discussion would be happening in exactly the same manner with him. You clearly believe in your product and time will tell if it proves itself and the rest of us come around or not. When I start seeing it and hearing about it in other racing circles, I'll be happy to give up my kerosene lamp. If someone showed up with your device at one of our races I'd certainly give it a good hard look and possibly try it but don't insult our intelligence because we aren't true believers in the same manner you are.

(An open-minded person would want to try it. Since a close-minded person could not provide unbiased feedback, we do not encourage them to give it a whirl.)

(Actually, I am heavily invested in structural implants for neurological and orthopaedic surgeons.)

(This is amusing. Do you honestly believe anyone is going to make money serving some Mickey Mouse $5MM racing market, compared to a $15B implant market?)

(Nah. Brain surgeons, now those guys are a tough sell.)

So we can deduce that you're making the really big bucks off the tough crowd brain surgeon implant market and just fooling around with your racing device for purely humanitarian reasons? Last time I checked, $5MM was a pretty good pay-day!

Why are you involved in this Mickey Mouse $5MM racing market then?

PS. The "Better at sex..." title can be changed at any time in the user preference section.

[sydude]

I've moved the recent posts about the Isaac® system from the HANS discussion thread back to here. It's requested that all posts regarding the Isaac® device be only made here. The HANS discussion thread's primary purpose is to discuss (and in my opinion to convince Skip Barber of) the need to require the use of a head and neck restraint system. In my opinion, that is the most important point of the discussion... getting people to use the device and to prevent injuries, not to further confuse it.


And on a lighter note:

Originally Posted by gbaker

"Better at sex than anyone...all I need is a partner."

Cute. Where do the adults play?

Obviously not here! You'll find very few of us on this site who claim that they are mature. If they do, they're lying!! And that's the way we like it.

And in case you really are insulted by that user title, please note that about 95 other members now share it with you.

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

Why are you involved in this Mickey Mouse $5MM racing market then?

Good point.