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#1
08-15-2010
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California 200 Off Road Tragedy
8 Dead in Desert Crash
I understand why people were upset with the driver, but the deaths were not his fault directly. Large crowds, right next to a dangerous part of the track, a lot of partying, only a matter of time at any of these events where spectators can be right next to the racing
__________________
.  "Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBE
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#2
08-15-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
A horrible tragedy and a shame for all those involved and their families..Thats ridiculous for anyone to be upset at the driver. EVERYONE involved knows the risks... A 9 YO would know.. I know most sanctionong bodies ask spectators to stay plenty of a distance away and on the sides of a course, like 200 yards or so.. and not in "target zones". It happens all the time that racers, especially on bikes lose a race or a spot and/or get injured by clipping a spectator and going down when the spectator was too close, or crossing the course or otherwise putting THEMSELVES in harm's way. In Baja and other offroad events many times there's cattle, wildlife, speactators on foot and in vehicles, sometimes running COUNTERRACE on course. More than one racer has lost one of the big Baja races from the very thing, especially on the tighenting corners coming to the checkered flag.
On top of that, another part of offroad racing that started in Baja and has creeped into the other races are the "boobytraps" built by specatators. Not meant to be harmful, just out of enthusiasm, like little kicker jumps. Sometimes built on the top of the crest, but other times built somewhere not so obvious. Combine that with them sometimes being hard to see in the bright sun and desert terrain sometimes they lead to crashes, many times of the huge "yardsale" variety. Often resulting in injuries for racers and spectators.... Just like in any other similar racing like rally type events, there no way organizers can babysit every spectator along all of miles of the course. Just as with so many other areas, people need to be more responsible for their own safety. Sometimes that can be hard to remember, especially in the high adrenaline, big party arena of offroad/rally racing. Lets hope people learn for this and something so horrible doesn't ever happen again and everyone can enjoy the racing just as much but in a safer manner.
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#3
08-15-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=914711
here's a post from another forum by someone that was there. 10 feet from the course.. I wonder if that was this particular section, or just a generalization...How terrible... The difference just some reasonable distance could have made..
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#4
08-15-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
Site forcing joining to view forums, can you copy / paste the story? LOL Thumper name, good one
and I like what you said in your first reply Roger, all true
__________________
. "Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBE
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#5
08-15-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
no prob Doug.. Will do.. forgot that was in the members only "Town Square" section... "thumper" refers to to the reverberating "thump thump" made by a BIG single pistoned bike like a 610 Husky...
 I really hope as horrible as this is for everyone that it doesn't affect racing any more than making people aware and safer with their decisions on how to spectate.. It's dangerous enough for the crews that HAVE to be closeer to the action they they like many times.. Tragedy/Chaos in Lucerne Valley, Ca. buggies RM 4.5 t the "rockpile" I have been going there years and every year the crowd gets larger and more stupid. About 2 minutes prior to the disaster, My bud and I were just discussing the coming tragedy. 20 seconds before the crash, my bud taps me on the shoulder (he has those senses lets just say) and says' "lets get out of here". Our guy just came through so I hesitated a moment and said ok- lets go. Just as we get to our bikes we hear the screams behind us (about 15-20 yards away and I turn to see 4 tires in the air, roof side down- (1400 truck). My bud asks, "what happened". I answer, "people are dead". My bud runs over quickly, I hesitate as I do in these situations and think about what is happening. I see chaos, the driver stumbling towards me and bodies everywhere. There are guys trying to tilt the car up to pull out a couple of bodies and I thought my bud was there. I declined to help as this was far beyond any of my abilities. Then I see my bud, he points to a young pretty blonde girl on the ground, head crushed and says - "She is dead". With that, I said I am leaving- this is tragedy beyond me. I have helped many people in my day. Just this year, I saved one dude by pulling him from his crushed toyota (barrelled rolled 7 times in front of me) and helped with a MC rider who crashed behind my house. Sadly- he did not make it and died right there. This my friends is REAL BAD! This may kill desert racing in Kali- probably will. We have had a good  I feel sorry for the promotors as I have helped run checks for them in the past. I knew this was coming but I expected it would be Mexico (Zoo rd San Felipe) first. My heart and prayers go out to the families. Many were just kids- so sad. My heart is very sad today. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100815/D9HJUCJ80.html
Last edited by cdh; 08-15-2010 at 06:20 PM.
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#6
08-15-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
Thanks Roger, that is a powerful report, such an unecessary tragedy. BTW, I owned a BSA 50T many moons ago, a thumper for sure, why I commented on the forum name
__________________
. "Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBELast edited by cdh; 08-15-2010 at 06:39 PM.
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#7
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
I heard on the hourly radio news that the assessment of the investigators is that the organizers were responsible for crowd safety (though we all know that it's impossible to patrol and control spectators at every section of a course).
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#8
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
Quote:
RIP those killed, so sad.
__________________
. "Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBELast edited by cdh; 08-16-2010 at 10:40 AM.
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#9
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
Just looking at the volume of people and how close they were tells you something bad is coming. I don't think it will be the end of off-road racing but it will force organizers to be more pro-active about crowd control. You can't control every part of a long off-road course but you can post warnings and disclaimers so people can't claim ignorance. Roger's mention of booby traps created by thrill seeker observers is even more diabolical and troubling.
At the Nurburgring they have a sign that says anything that happens to you and your car is on you and if you go out there you agree to that. People die there all the time on motorcycles and in cars. It's been that way for years and people who go there know that. We are so much more litigious one would think that would be impossible here. but if you set the ground rules up front, post the course and educate people about the dangers it would certainly be possible to reduce the risk. Part of the problem was the deteriorating crowd mentality. Hundreds, possibly thousands who have been drinking and partying all day is a recipe for disaster without speeding vehicles. Add the lure of speeding trucks and it is amazing it hasn't happened more often. The only reason it's received so much media time is the video that shows how ridiculously close the crowds were. Thankfully the guy with the camera is just far enough away not to view the gory details of this tragedy.
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
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#10
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
I just heard that the permit they were operating under stated that anyplace the vehicles were within 25ft (I think?) of the crowds they could not be traveling faster than 15mph...
If true the organizers and the quite possibly the driver could be totally screwed.... And it may well be the first step in ending off road racing.
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#11
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
Or put most of it in Mexico or outside our borders.
Quote:
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
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#12
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
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More evidence of very poor decision making by the spectators: it was reported that one of the guys killed had his kids standing next to him. He had the presence of mind to push them out of the way when he saw the truck coming, but he was unable to escape himself. Wonderful that he was able to save his kids, but IMO absolutely stupid parenting to have his kids standing within 10 feet of the path of racing trucks coming over a jump. Why would anyone do that? Maybe he was caught up in the partying too. As Doug says, very sad.
__________________
"All things are ready if our minds be so." -- Henry V
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#13
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
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No surprise this went global, I can't recall a worse spectator accident (in recent memory). Motorsport is tied with football (soccer) for worldwide popularity. Oh yeah, I saw one of those crash shows on TV that featured an off road race in Mexico where spectators added a kicker to a big bump, caused many flipped racers. What dorks
__________________
. "Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBE
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#14
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
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__________________
. "Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBE
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#15
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
From one article I read on AOL (my emphasis)
"The driver who lost control during an off-road race in the California desert and killed eight people when he crashed his truck into a crowd "had no business" going as fast as he did, a witness said today. Keith Carty, an off-road race driver, watched the tragic accident at the California 200 truck race this weekend that also injured at least a dozen people. He said the driver took the jump too fast. "If there's a huge jump coming up and people, lines of people on either side, you have no business doing 80-90 miles an hour through there," he told NBC's "Today" show. "It's the driver's responsibility to make sure that he's driving in a safe manner when there are spectators around." I think KT is right about who is going to be nailed for this. NBC TV news video Roger, you are a desert racer, is their description of driver / rider responsibility typical for these events?
__________________
. "Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBE
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#16
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
I tried friending the driver Brett Sloppy on Facebook, lend some support ya know? But his request box is full, that's good, he'll need all the support he can get, especially in the coming months, this will be forgotten by the media fairly quickly, but it wont go away for him anytime soon...poor guy, cannot imagine
 Here is the text from his FB wall - copied directly (some here are not on FB...well one I know ;]), nice to see he's getting a lot of positive support (a couple knuckleheads but almost all good comments) ************************************************** ********************************************** Brett Sloppy Soo incredibly lost and devistated my thoughts and prayers go out to all the familys and friends involved.. Thank you too all my friends for sticking with me even thru these tragic times I love you all 18 people like this.
__________________
. "Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBE
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Yesterday at 8:05am · 
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#17
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
It was on the front page of the New York Times today as well and the story was remarkably balanced. They describe the scene as completely desolate with nothing nearby that supports life and no one there except those that want to be there. Because it's a sanctioned event the rules of traffic law do not apply. It is sanctioned as a racing event. That's why the driver isn't charged or arrested. He was exactly where he was supposed to be. It was the spectators who put themselves in harms way.
It's easy to blame the driver but if he's there to race and if the competitors in front of you and behind you are going all out through close clusters of spectators it would be very hard not to do the same. Having spent many days at live race tracks and driving schools you realize how quickly things can go wrong even under ideal conditions. When you're talking about full-out off-road vehicles on desert terrain with spectators a few feet from the vehicles... There is no possible sane justification for it except to test your odds for survival. I'd rather run with the bulls in Pamplona than stand at the edge of that desert path and run the risk of becoming a bug on one of those trucks windshields. It's thrilling to stand at the inside of turn 17 at Sebring and watch the cars dive straight at you at over 100 mph with nothing separating you but a Jersey barrier... And even with the Jersey barrier there is some risk but to put yourself in harms way in front of airborne vehicles in clouds of dirt and sand and undulating terrain? That's just crazy. I understand the thrill but if you're looking for that kind of thrill you really are taking your life in your hands... and you can't really blame the drivers for coming there to do what they came to do... race.
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
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#18
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
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#19
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
well stated DD, thanks...brings to mind Newgarden's off into pit lane at LRP, could have been horrible, so lucky. Even standing in the pits you need to stay alert.
Thanks for the vid Peter...you'd think the Pres of the association might have chosen a more conservative shirt to wear today 
__________________
. "Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBE
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#20
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
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Well, typical what you see in races that are only one "lap", like in Mexico is drivers MAY slow down over jumps/hills a lil bit..But thats more in the interest of the drivers/riders own safety. Since generally if there's a large crowd around a certain section, ESPECIALY a hill, that is most likely where on of those "booby traps" are built.. It takes people to build em and they usualy wanna watch the extra air after. Like I said before, most are not meant to be malicious. But unfortunately they many times end badly. I bet with all the miles of offroad raced throughout the year the statics for miles/vs speactators hurt aren't all that much different than "closed course" events.. certainly more racers are hurt by spectators actions than vice versus in this arena anyway..Think about how many miles are done with rally and all... Even though this instance is awfully terrible, it's a very rare situation for the amount of risk that SPEACTATORS put THEMSELVES in. If you go by what Keith Carty ( who I never heard of before) says here, there really shouldn't be speactators within eyeshot in many places. Things break all the time. The chances are probally much higher of a race vehicle having a failure and careening off course hundreds of yards than of one going off a small jump and taking people out. Bottom line for me is, people need to do ALOT of work to SEEK out and put THEMSELVES in the position of harms way when watching a race like that. Certainly more work than what it take to use some common sense and realize how far a vehicle can travel at even 40- 50 MPH, nevermind racing at 80-100 MPH. So if you can seek that out, you certainly should be held to your own responsibilty of safety 100% and the racers should be 100% focused on what they are doing.. racing... OF course, just my personal opinion. If racers are supposed to slow down for people who don't have their own safety foremost, HOW MUCH do they slow down.?? Now one of the determining factors of race finishes is at the whim of the crowd and/or how much some people slow or other don't?? In a way it's a shame its already like at the BIG races, such as the ones in Mexico. You certainly can't really fight for an overall win in bikes these days without helicopter support. It's a HUGE advantage when the helicopter scouts ahead and radios to a rider about crowd conditions, spots hazards, booby traps, obstacles on course etc. Wiithout that hep you really cant go all out over the LITERALLY THOUSANDS of blind rises throughout the desert. Thats half of Baja.. comitment over blind rises/ corners. Going off into the desert with a bike at 70-100 MPH never really ends the same as doing a few rolls in a buggy/truck so that extra amount of throttle pinned commitment make all the difference in the world. Of course it has been becoming the same way with the big players in the trucks and buggies as far as need ing a heli to race for a win there. Point being.. Who decides what size crowd, their placement etc. and how much of an impact does it have on the 'speed adjustment". Who decides that?? How to you make it fair to all the racers.?? If you go out there and you're not willing to take the responsiblity of being gravely injured or worse, don't get close to the action.. Stay farther away and let the racers race. Off road and Rally racing is a whole different animal. People that go to so much effort to seek it out should know that and understand the differences and consequences. Then, in the most unfortunate circumstance that something likes this happens, there's no blame.. It's just a horrble tragedy for EVERYONE that's involved. Everyone knows of the risks. Hopefully we won't ever hear of another one like this happening for a long, long time. I hope my opinions on personal safety and responsibility do not sound calous. As I can't even begin to imagine the level of grief and grieving these families are feeling after such a tragedy. My hearts and prayers go out to them. So if my answer got lost... Certainly dirvers and riders I have known want the best for spectators...But I've never been around any that lift enough that anyone but themselves would notice the lift happened, no matter how tight the quarters get. There's plenty of youtube video to show that.
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#21
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
Quote:
__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler!
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#22
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
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#23
08-16-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
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The impact may fade relatively quickly. The collective memory is short. 1955 didn't kill LeMans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955_Le_Mans_disaster
__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler!
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#24
08-17-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
It was just the first story (with video and an interview with a spectator and one with the the blonde girl's father) on CBS' Up to the Minute. It was followed by an ad break and then, in this order, coverage of the flooding in Pakistan, nuclear enrichment in Iran, and a plane crash in Colombia where only 1 out of the 131 on board died...
At the bottom of the hyperlinked article are the Editor's Picks. The picks, in order, are the plane crash, this article about the desert race crash, a piece about playing football and fasting during Ramadan in Michigan, and a photo highlight. No mention of the 9 year old girl who died in a crash while in a kart race, though.
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#25
08-17-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
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#26
08-18-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
So, I'm having a hard time visualizing how the kart accident happened. Why is there a tractor and trailer where a kart could clip it? Maybe you can explain it, Kevin.
__________________
"All things are ready if our minds be so." -- Henry V
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#27
08-18-2010
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Re: California 200 Off Road Tragedy
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