No Driver Ed.

[cdh]

Toyota is under fire for many horrific crashes resulting from unintended acceleration. I am not commenting on the cause of the problem or Toyota's responsibility. What I find incredible is the unbelievably poor driver ed and minimal requirements in the US for a license.

Video is 7 minutes, I kept watching and waiting to hear someone describe the SIMPLE life-saving step in avoiding a crash in this situation. PUT THE FREAKING CAR INTO NEUTRAL! - DUH!!!! Finally in the last 30 seconds of a 7 minute video a "professional" driver demonstrates this no-brainer step to save your life.

Many have died because they did not do this, I find it beyond belief. An off-duty Cali trooper and family calling 911 on a cell as his car races towards disaster looking for help??? A Trooper??? They all died!

"Last month, an off-duty California state trooper and three members of his family were killed in the San Diego area in a crash of a 2009 Lexus ES350. Before the crash, a passenger in the car had called 911 and told dispatchers that the accelerator was stuck and the car had reached 120 miles per hour (193 km per hour)."

State Driver Ed? No such thing. Trio's description of what was required of her to get a license is frightening (not your driving Trio, the 'requirements' ). Read what is required in say, Germany to get a license. It is very comprehensive, time consuming and expensive. Driving is a privilege, not a right....but not in the US I guess. Thank you motor voter. Forced Darwinism

video
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerindex?id=8990979

cdh

[Slowhands]

My brother moved to Germany at the age of 23, after having gotten a driver's license here. He has talked about this issue a lot-- the difference between the US and Germany in training its drivers. When I think of what I DIDN'T know about driving before I started my SBRS training, I get cold sweats.

The Toyota problem is an ECU glitch. Unlike them to come clean on this.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

My brother moved to Germany at the age of 23, after having gotten a driver's license here. He has talked about this issue a lot-- the difference between the US and Germany in training its drivers. When I think of what I DIDN'T know about driving before I started my SBRS training, I get cold sweats.

The Toyota problem is an ECU glitch. Unlike them to come clean on this.

yeah, they are blaming floor mats, gimme a break. This is what can happen when a fully mechanical link between the accelerator pedal and the butterflies is replaced with electronics. I am a fan of the technology, but with it comes a potential increase in dangerous failures. I am still not comfortable with an electronic link between the steering wheel and the steering rack. But so far it works safely.

[Rosso]

This is reminisant of the "60 Minutes" Audi unintended acceleration thing back in 1986 or 87. In my opinion, all of those people had their foot on the accelerator when they thought it was on the brake. There is simply no other plausible engineering explanation. I went out and bought a 1988 Audi - got a great deal - and I never had such a problem with it.

My standard is this: From a standing start clock the elapsed time or distance to run 0 to 60 mph. Do the same thing for braking from 60 mph to 0. I believe that it would be extremely rare to find a passenger car that does not stop in significantly less time and less distance than it accelerates. This would tell you that the available braking force should exceed the available motive force. So if you are bearing down on the brake pedal with the force these folks claim, the car will eventually come to a stop, no matter what the position of the throttle.

Now, the whole deal where folks run down the highway at 100 mph+ and don't generate enough problem solving brain power to bump it into neutral or turn the ignition to the first "off" position (is that just not posible in a Toyota ?) - or is it just accelerated Darwinism at work?

I'll bet this growing storm cloud on the horizon in their biggest market played some part in their sudden withdrawal from F1.

[GEORGE]

It took years for Audi to recover from their "unintended acceleration" I bet Toyota will find a way to handle this better. They handled the "engine sludge issue and the odometer discrepency issue and the Floor mat issue" and still they advertise that they are the "most dependable"cars in America. Even though they had more recalls in 2008 than Ford, GM, and Chrysler combined.

They have a great PR machine. I have not had a single person say a thing to me about this. Back in the Audi scam, everyone was talking about it! I thought it was very funny then. Audi had such a teeny, tiny piece of the market then and everyone was concerned.... Toyota has such a huge piece of the market, and nobody is talking. Toyota will weather this unscathed!

But, if this was an American car Company.......This would be front page news! And people would be saying, "Americans build junk. I wouldn't buy one!" We just love to shoot ourselves in the foot.

[cdh]

Copy all Rosso and George. Audi was certainly a different situation and I agree most were probably pedal confusion. Toyota has a true defect it seems.

Interesting Toyota recall stats George, I had no idea, they do spin well.

As GF Kane said "If the headline is big enough, it makes the news big enough"

[cdh]

Originally Posted by Rosso

Now, the whole deal where folks run down the highway at 100 mph+ and don't generate enough problem solving brain power to bump it into neutral or turn the ignition to the first "off" position (is that just not possible in a Toyota ?) - or is it just accelerated Darwinism at work?

The "pro" driver at the end of the video demonstrates the move in a Toyota (and the engine was screaming WOT, he stopped car, turned off the ignition, done). I tried it in my mom's Lex ES and it works just fine (same model trooper was driving). BTW, mom turned 80 last March, I asked her what she would do in such a situation (she still drives all the time, even into NYC, amazing) and she replied a bit unsure "Turn off the key? If I still had a clutch I would push it in....can I just put it in neutral?" WTG mom! Might be prudent to let any Toyota / Lexus drivers in your circle know about this, ya never know who it might help. Panic is definitely a factor also, easy to freeze and stop thinking rationally in a situation like this. Brings to mind one of my first experiences tracking out of the Downhill at speed....

[Magical Trevor]

I love the interviewed people:

"We survived this deadly situation, thank god etc..."

I'm thinking "How, then?!"

Then the nice producer puts the little note at the end.

By the way, the guy from Consumer Reports is their head auto tester, Jake Fisher, and he's an Improved Touring driver: http://www.racerjake.com

[dalyduo]

People go into panic mode on the skid pad and autocross eating a full box of crayons with some regularity during driving schools. You try to anticipate a person's response but sometimes they even surprise themselves. :-) How that trooper and his passenger had time to call 911 and not find a way to stop or slow that car is mind boggling but obviously within the realm of possibility given the outcome. When things go wrong quickly people do the familiar thing but not necessarily the right thing. When a first attempt fails panic often causes the same failed action to be repeated over and over without awareness that a different input might create a different outcome. It's both human nature and poor drivers training that sets the table for things like this to happen.

My question would be is it possible the ECU is set up not to accept or allow manually taking it out of gear above a certain speed. That would explain what happened to the tooper and also why it hasn't seemingly been repeated. The logic being to keep someone from throwing it into reverse by accident at highway speed where a loss of control would result. Wondered what speed you tried it in your mom's Lexus Doug? It didn't look like the Consumer Reports guy was going very fast when he demo'd the "putting it in neutral" procedure.

As to the woman who put her Prius in a stream it's hard to imagine the brakes not being capable of overcoming the low powered hybrid. But it's very possible to imagine a driver with little training not realizing she could overcome the motor by pressing much harder on the brakes. When we do brake exercises in the drivers schools the first obstacle is teaching people to really stand on the brakes to get the car to stop in the shortest possible distance. Most have never done it and to think they'd figure it out in a panic situation is absolute folly. She swears she stomped the brakes and her husband who wasn't there is infuriated anyone would question or doubt what she did but real time data of the incident might tell a different story.

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by cdh

...I tried it in my mom's Lex ES and it works just fine ...

LOL - Sounds like high school all over again - some things NEVER change...

[oldredracer]

Interesting that when faced with imminent personal acquaintance with a bridge abuttment, someone would think to take out a cell phone and call 911.
That, by the way, is why I always have The Kingston Trio at position # 6 on the player. I can start playing Kumbaya at the flick of a finger as things start flying by at an unintended pace.
Well, it works for the gun control people.

[GEORGE]

An interesting thing about these new cars. Has anyone noticed that when the car is in neutral, you cannot just put the throttle to the floor and rev the engine beyond about 4000 rpm? push any further and the engine just slows down. So, I'm thinking, if you throw it into neutral, the engine would NOT run at full throttle. On the other hand... Save a life, throw it in neutral, and Blow the engine!