Effects of medication on racing

[rheistand]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on this sight although i have read threw the forums before. My name is Richard Heistand and i came to skip barber a few months ago some of you may know me. The reason i am writing this is because in short the past couple of months i have had chest pain and have had several tests run all to this point negative. there may or may not be a problem(doctors say most likely minor if any) i have good doctors so that is not the reason for this post. However because of these pains i have become prone to panic attacks that are strictly related to fear of health related issues. They have become quiet the problem and as a result my primary care physician has proscribed me xanax. i begain taking them a week before VIR and they help the problem. i did my best to limit usage durng the week giving myself 12 hours off before getting in the car for the most part. i have been told that it is in your system for 8 hours. however i did not feel queit right. i would stumble ocasionally and i just felt dull and a little clumbsy and i would get the shakes in my hands. i have looked on the internet and sights have said that there are withdraw symptoms to thoughs effects. some nights i have a hard time sleeping without taking it. i have disided to quit the med. though, 4 days prior to lime rock park because the internet said something about that being sufficiant time to get past withdrawls and i hae been assured that xanax does not have permanent effects unless i think you take it for years and years in exsess. My doctor is not a race car diver and therefore does not understand plus i will not see him till i get back from LRP. i was hoping someone on this sight mite know something about this drug and could posably offer some advice. i did a lot of stupid things at VIR, like forgeting how many warm up laps we were doing and almost slaming into all the cars on the front strait at grid up, not to menchion breaking my car before the race even started by flying threw the grass to avoid. This costs a lot of money and is a very seriouse ambition for me and the others and i would not be doing myself or the other drivers any favors by not trying to look into this more theroughly. Racing is an expencive hobbie so some of you guys have to be doctors!!! Anyway some advice on this and my preventitive actions would be apriciated, expert or not.

bye the way the spelling and format suck but its late.sorry.

[cheekychica]

Hi rheistand,

You bring up an important and serious topic -- especially for anyone participating in a strenuous activity/sport (like racing). So I'm going to offer up some information on Panic Disorder, because -- no matter who you are, whether you race, etc. -- if you're experiencing these symptoms, it's important you get them treated.

It sounds to me that what you are experiencing IS a panic attack. Panic attacks manifest in several different ways, and a person often undergoes countless cardiac tests before Panic Disorder is pinpointed as the problem. I'll break it down for you, based on the information you provided (all quite helpful, by the way).

A Panic Attack is the abrupt experience of intense fear or discomfort , and is accompanied by several physical symptoms (e.g., breathlessness, chest pain ).

There are three types of Panic Attacks:

• Situationally bound (cued) panic -- expected and bound to some situations
• Unexpected (uncued) panic -- unexpected "out of the blue"/without warning
• Situationally predisposed panic -- may or may not occur in some situations

Panic Attacks are also comorbid (existing simultaneously with and usually independently of another medical condition) with other Anxiety Disorders and Depression, so let your doctor know if you have a history of either. He can also evaluate you for these conditions using standardized screenings.

Now, it does not sound as if you have an Anxiety Disorder, but, from what you said, I would say that you have Panic Disorder -- specifically Unexpected (uncued) Panic.

This disorder develops in steps:

• Experience an unexpected panic attack
• Develop anxiety, worry, or fear about having another attack or its implications
• Symptoms and concern about another attack persist for 1 month or more

Now, don't be concerned that you are alone in having Panic Disorder. 3.5% of the general population meet the diagnostic criteria for panic disorder. You are also right at the beginning of the age range for typical onset, and I've known people who have developed a Panic Disorder while they were still in high school.

Have you ever woken up to the feelings you've described? 60% of people with Panic Disorder experience nocturnal panic attacks during deep (non-REM) sleep. These are triggered due to changes in one's heart rate and breathing.

As for Medications:

• Medications prescribed to treat Panic Disorder target serotonergic, noradrenergic, and benzodiazepine GABA systems.
• The currently preferred drugs are the Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) -- Specifically, Prozac and Paxil.

VERY IMPORTANT:
Relapse rates are high following medication discontinuation
If you abruptly go off your medication, you have a very high chance of having another Panic Attack soon after.

SSRIs also take time to be affective. You will not experience immediate results because it takes time for your body to adjust to the chemical alteration. Basically, an SSRI makes more serotonin immediately available BUT the receptors that detect the serotonin need time (1-3 weeks) to become sensitive to the increased amounts. If you abruptly stop the medication, less serotonin will be available, but the receptors will expect the high amounts made available by the drug. When these levels of serotonin aren't available, the receptor will recognize a deficiency, and you will most likely have another panic attack (or experience depression).

Treatments for Panic Disorder:

• Cognitive-behaviour therapies are highly effective
• Combined treatments (pharmaceutical and Cognitive-Behaviour) do well in the short term
• The best long-term outcome is with Cognitive-Behaviour therapy alone

Once you get a chance to see your doctor again, ask him about these possibilities -- especially about the SSRIs. You are definitely right that it is potentially a very dangerous condition to have while racing. Once you and your doctor determine the right amount of medicine for your body, however, you should be able to function, drive, etc. without experiencing the "sluggishness" you described. Keep in mind that the amount of medicine you might need could be more (or, more probably) less than the amount in the Xanax tablet, and that's assuming that Xanax is the right drug for you!

Please feel free to ask any other questions you may have about your personal panic-related symptoms, the medicine, or anything I've written about here. I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have.

[MJAmok]

With those symptoms, should Richard be racing? In addition to himself, it seems he may be putting his competitors at risk... (i.e. "almost slaming into all the cars on the front strait at grid up, not to menchion breaking my car before the race even started by flying threw the grass to avoid.").

[rheistand]

thanks, cheekychica for the detailed info and i understand the concern menchtioned by mjAmok. i was expecting concerns like mjamoks to be posted so let me elaborate. my panic attacks are stricktly situatuionall, as stated by cheekychica as one of the posible types of panic attacks. bound to me experiencing pain in my chest that admitadly only happens when i am sitting on the couch doing nothing or trying to sleep i feel a pain, get all worked up about it and start panicing. i do not wake up in the middle of the night with a panic attack, they do not start sudenlly without warning. whenever i am doing something i am fine. i do not take xanax during the day, only at night because it is the only time i need it, because it is the only time i am not doing something and have time to sit down and brood on my health. let me reasure everyone that any posible effects on my racing at VIR was not do to being unstable mentally and if anything had to do with the effect of taking xanax at night and then abruptly stoping during the day. especially only after being on it for a week. there is absolutly no chance what so ever of me having a panic attack in the race car. infact i have not had a panic attack in two or so weeks ever since the results from my stress test, mra of my heart and eco cardiogram came back good. the only problem was me taking the meds and having effects from them even after they were out of my system. every panic attack i have had has been the result of several minutes of hard core worring about my heart.( wich is fine)cheekychica is right in saying that i need to sit down with my doctor and try and get a nother med. the reason i am on this one is because it can be taken on an as needed basis. but anyway how i sleep at night for the LRP race is going to be my problem however i can asure everyone that the effects from xanax will not be a problem for anyone diring the day in the car because i arlready stoped taking it a day ago. i am only taking .25mg once a day anyway so it should not have to great of an effect on me by stoping. Cheekychica can corret me if i am rong. and to the juicy master domain guy or whatever that sent me an email that told me i was racing in neverneverland because i was not on any of the VIR rosters forgot to check the national chamionship roster. the email was funny though just the same

[rheistand]

after thinking about it i think i also need to explain the start up grid incident a little better to. i really though we were doing an aditional lap than we were on warm up. everyone that is familiar with VIR knows that the last turn, turn 17 is very fast and you have to crest over a hill before you get a view of the front strait. this combined with me thinking there was another lap led to the incedint. in fact of all the little things i did wrong that weekend that was the bigest and probubly had nothing to do with meds and everything to do with me talking with some of the other guys during the drivers meeting. i only menchioned it because it was dramatic. i see know that that was a mistake. i would say that any effects are suddle ones that were making me just not quiet there. but dont think that i was swerving all over the road or anything and had no buesiness driving under the influnce of strong medication, because that simply is not true. please talk to anyone that drove around me at VIR or the Instructores that wached to confirm that i had control of the car. but anyway i did not post this because i did not want to here people opinions on the subject i just wanted to make sure there are no more misconseptions.

[MJAmok]

ok, I'll be the pain in the ass. In addition to forgeting how many warm up laps were to be run, you also apparently forgot to keep an eye out for flags. The last corner (perhaps several corners) shows a waving yellow on the last warm up lap just for that reason.

[MJAmok]

btw... feel free to post the "never never land" email. I'm sure we would enjoy it!

[rheistand]

cheekychica,
thank you again for all the info, do you know if meds like lexapro that are permanantly in your system till you ween yourself of effect reaction time and such. because that was the main reason i declined taking them because i did not want something that was going to effect my performance?

[rheistand]

editor: What rheistand received was an automated 'reply to post' email from teamjuicyracing.com, as a user from this board had replied to this thread early this morning. The user looked at the VIR regionals roster and didn't see rheistand on the list and assumed that this was a prank user. The user didn't realize that rheistand is a National series driver, and so he wasn't on that list. When the user realized his mistake, he requested the post be deleted, which I did. Here is the contents of that post, as received and posted now by rheistand:

Originally Posted by anonymous poster

Dear Mr. self proclaimed scalawag from the "ass" racing class, whose occupation is scalawagging,

You aren't on any of the VIR rosters so perhaps Michael Jackson slipped something into your juice while you were in "Never Land" that made you delusional. (Or pixie dust while you were in "Never Never Land"). You only think you were at VIR and are having panic attacks.

Perhaps you've discovered that racing is much less expensive and hazardous, when you only do it in your mind.

You may be having withdrawl symptoms but we doubt there was prescription medication involved.

Good luck with rehab.

[cheekychica]

Hi rheistand,

I'm glad to know that the info helped you out.

First, let me clarify one of my points:
I do not think that your panic attacks are separate from the chest pain you experience.
From what you first described, and then elaborated on, I believe that the chest pain you are experiencing IS a panic attack.
Often, panic attacks feel like a heart attack, chest pain, constricting feeling in the chest, etc. Before people are diagnosed with panic attacks, they often think they have a serious cardiac disorder, when it is really the panic attack that they are feeling.

I have no doubt that, once you feel the chest pain, you become more worried and anxious, but, from what you described, I want you to know that the chest pain you're experiencing is almost definitely the panic attack, and not a separate health problem.

You said that your doctors have done ECGs and MRIs of your heart, and that the cardiac tests you've had have had good results. It is only because you've had these tests and had good results that I'm suggesting that the chest pain is the panic attack. Cardiac problems are, of course, no joking matter.

The main point I want to emphasize is something that the Cognitive-Behavioural treatment would really help with, and that is why it is considered to be the most effective treatment for Panic Disorder:

Your chest pain is a panic attack. When I read your initial description, that was the first thing that popped out at me. And I'm still standing by the theory that it is uncued panic. You're right to recognize that the feeling of panic gets worse after experiencing the chest pain, but I believe that this worsening feeling is just a continuation of the panic attack that started with the chest pain.

Here's a suggestion:
When you feel the chest pain/tightness coming on, start repeating to yourself that "This is a panic attack. I do not have a cardiac problem." over and over. It may seem simplistic, but if you can clear your mind and just focus on repeating that mantra, there's a good chance that it could help alleviate your symptoms. Do look into Cognitive-Behaviour treatment with your doctor, or a specialist he might recommend, because it really does work well.

[cheekychica]

As for your questions about Lexapro...

I have not had much experience with this particular drug, but I did gather together some important information:

• Lexapro was initially approved to treat Major Depressive Disorder, and later cited in the treatment of Generalized Anxiety Disorder, not Panic Disorder.
• Lexapro, like Prozac, Paxil, and Zoloft, is an SSRI and affects the body's reaction to and production of the neurotransmitter serotonin.
• 10mg per day is the recommended starting dose, and it should be taken once a day with a full 8oz glass of water at the same time every day.
• Full effects may take 4-6 weeks, while partial effects may be felt within 1-2 weeks.
• Do not take if taking an MAOI (monoamine oxidase inhibitor).
• Do not double doses. If you miss a dose, take it as soon as possible, BUT, if you are close to the time of your next dose, just take the next dose, and don't take the one you missed.
• It is strongly recommended that you do not drink alcohol while taking Lexapro.
• Pay careful attention to the side effects listed in the informational pamphlets included with the medication and by your doctor, as medicine affects everyone differently.
• Adverse events can occur upon the discontinuation of the drug, especially when abrupt.

As I stated before Prozac and Paxil are the two most highly recommended drugs for the treatment of Panic Disorder. Zoloft has also been used.

Again, the most successful treatment of Panic Disorder is the Cognitive-Behavioural treatment method. Check out these websites for more information:
http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/panic.html
http://www.apa.org/videos/4310420.html
http://www.apa.org/videos/4310260.html
http://helping.apa.org/therapy/panic.html
http://www.apa.org/

[rheistand]

thanks for the aditional info, i will be talking with my doctor when i return. in reaspons to MJamoks aditional comments. i do not think you are a pain in the ass for having a concern about the mistake i made. however i did see the yellow and thought that someone had spun because i was so sure that we had another lap. i kept going when i did not see anyone. is it posible that the meds. withdrawl had an effect on this? anything is posible, but i stand by what i said earlier about my incorect reasoning for using that as an example. anyway i will be off medication for 5 days prior to getting in the car so that can no longer be a problem. my goal is to stop taking meds altogether and replace it with some counseling. in truth the problem has not been going on that long and ever since my test results two weeks ago things have been much better. when i went to the doctor in the first place he was not going to give me anything but i said i was having trouble sleeping. so he was kinda like " here, take these". i knew that they should not be taken when doing an activity. but i just wanted to confirm my suspicions about withdrawl from them. i dont want people to think this is a gigantic problem but i now realize that when you write something down there is no tone behind it and it can be percived incorrectly. i have not had a panic attack for two weeks, this hole problem has only lasted close to two months. anyway i think the info has helped from cheekychica, and i have dicided to fallow through with not taking the meds. and in the spirit of hoping people not take this post to seriously i want to retitle the thread but i do not know how. that way no one can reed it out of context.
By the way i thought that e-mail about never neverland was pretty funny. i did dicide to change my location to orlando fl from neverneverland, what with the hole michael jackson thing plus i think if people think i live in neverneverland and take xanax again they might get the wrong idea. I still am a scalawag from the ass racing class with an ocupation of scalawaging. that is not going to change

[John Greist]

Sorry to be late joining this string. CheekyChicka has provided excellent information so I’ll fill in around the edges and a few gaps.

“Fear” and “anxiety” are common synonyms though technically they are different: fear has identifiable triggers that can cause harm (e.g., saber tooth tiger); anxiety produces similar bodily and mental reactions but has no realistic trigger (e.g., heights [acrophobia]). Those with anxiety disorders recognize their fears are out of proportion to any real risks they face.

Our anxiety apparatus evolved to ensure we survive long enough to reproduce the species. As any normally distributed biological function, anxiety, at its polar extremes, endows some individuals with too little and too much anxiety. Those without anxiety die early; those with severe anxiety have anxiety disorders.

The boundary between normal anxiety and anxiety that requires treatment is not sharply defined. Some seek treatment for anxiety that disappears spontaneously in a few days. Some doctors won’t treat until absolutely certain that a clear anxiety disorder is present and is interfering substantially with an individual’s functioning. When anxiety causes marked distress or interferes with functioning in important life roles – like driving a race car – most agree treatment is indicated.

As CC said, there are two effective treatments for anxiety disorders: Behavior therapy (BT) and medications. BT’s core element is prolonged exposure to triggers of anxiety. Sounds paradoxical, but it works better than medications for most people and has lasting benefits. Medications work, usually not as well as BT, cause side effects and lose their benefit when stopped.

People with anxiety try to avoid triggers of anxiety and that avoidance perpetuates and worsens their disorder. We get used to things that are annoying but not truly dangerous if we don’t avoid them. “Habituation” is the technical term for getting used to annoying things and 97% of us habituate well as long as we don’t avoid. Any drug company would kill for a treatment that works 97% of the time.

Benzodiazepines (e.g., Xanax, Valium, Klonapin, Ativan, etc.) work fast in generalized anxiety and panic disorders for which one or another has FDA approvals. They also cause drowsiness, poor coordination, and slowed reaction time among other side-effects , especially early in treatment. Think of them as alcohol in pill form. People certainly shouldn’t drive race cars or fly airplanes when starting BZs and it’s debatable whether they should ever mix that class of medications with activities that require immediate reactions. BZs also cause physical dependency (that’s not addiction) that leads to withdrawl reactions when stopped abruptly.

Antidepressants are actually broad-spectrum psychopharmacologic agents and several have FDA approvals for treating generalized anxiety, panic, social anxiety, obsessive compulsive and post-traumatic stress disorders. The SSRIs (Celexa, Lexapro, Paxil, Prozac, and Zoloft) are most widely used and produce less drowsiness, poor coordination and slowed reaction time than BZs, especially after the dose has been adjusted properly. Many people can operate machinery well while taking SSRIs, though the military won’t let you fly while taking them.

So, if I had an anxiety disorder that caused lots of anxiety and interfered with functioning, I’d want the best treatment: exposure therapy. The rub – it’s hard to find, like free range chicken (there are 1 million free range chickens raised in the US every year – there are 40 million sold.). I don’t think people starting on a BZ should race though someone who’s stabilized might make the case it’s OK. I wouldn’t worry about someone who’s stabilized on an SSRI. Ultimately, these decisions must be made by patients and their doctors.

John

[ML Peter Ludwig]

I am getting panic attacks just thinking I will be racing with Richard again! LRP was awesome though, I am glad I did not read this before the weekend! Chill buddy, it is all in your head, get laid and you will feel much better. Hope your arm is OK from the arm-wrestling match.

[rheistand]

i am happy to report that i am no longer going to be on medication. and i was not on it at lime rock any way. no side effect, no panic attacks. all though you wouldnt know it by the way my races went. i dnf'd both. i was 6th in practice, but crashed in qualifing on the out lap in the down hill. had to start 17th but was up to 8th by lap 4 when i got a flat. second race qualified 10th. ( i suck ) but ever since i crashed i was taking the uphill and the down hill like a woman. tried to pass Peter for 8th, and went off in turn one. Guess i forgot to break. still early in the race so i got back on in DFL. passed jimmy holden to take out some of my frustrations then i parked it. but i guess its not all to bad considering i only entered two regional race weekends befor entering nationals and never go- karted. Peter i hope you dont panic two much when we race again. Of course you could always quit instead . think that over but in the mean time i will try to get lade and you can get ready for round three of our arm restling showdown. its one up for now.

[John Greist]

Rick,

I think you've got another problem now. Some women are fierce in and out of race cars - Danicka Patrick to mention only one. Suggest you get more practice relating respectfully as well as in cars.

John

[rheistand]

i did not mean to offend with my comment. i think Lora Rowe is an exellent driver. And i have as much if not more respect for Divina than any of the Skipy instructors. I was mearly shooting from the hip when writing that post and my only real intention was to give Peter a hard time in return(all in fun). So for that i am sorry. As for the comment about me getting more experience in racing. to be honest i take offence to that. i am guessing you did not like what i said so that was the motivation behind your comment. However i am going to respond anyway. yes i have very little racing experience, but in that short period of time i have placed 1st and 2nd in my first two races at moroso, in front of john peterson and a karter named victor pedrosa. i ran very low 1.39s( second fastest in friday practice to varsha) at road atlanta(did not race) and came in 6th after qualifing 8th in the rain at the first national event. my first time every driving in the rain. i was running 47.8s in practice at lime rock, and am there for placing ahead of people with far more experience than i. i know i still have a lot to lern and a long way to go, especially with the goals i have set for myself, and in listing this i am in no way saying that i am a good race car driver yet, but i am most surtainly not a bad one. and surtainly do not diserve to be told i am incompetent. and i will leave it at that.

[rheistand]

by the way my name is Rich

[dalyduo]

I should start off by saying that I was the anonymous poster who first flamed Richard when he started this thread. All of his personal data (some of which he has now changed) was smartass. (I don't have a problem with that as most of mine is too! :-) When I couldn't find him in the VIR race database (didn't know the nationals had separate results) I thought his post was a hoax and I flamed him. Sy saw my post and contacted me about it and we pulled it because I'd never knowingly make fun of someone seeking medical or psychological support. I jumped the gun there, apologize here and appreciate Richard's understanding.

However, with all due respect Richard,

First, If you are going to correct John on the spelling of your name, you might try proof reading your own posts before you pull the trigger. (You ran a 47.8 at LRP in a Skippy Car?) And while we all make spelling mistakes once in a while, yours are consistently magnificent. (lern, surtainly, qualifing, diserve... just in your last post)

Second, If you are going to defend yourself as a racer then you should behave like one. Quitting the race because you are no longer contending is not the respected behavior of a racer. Seat time is expensive and precious. You finish the race to respect the race, the craft, the instructors, your competitors and most importantly yourself. (And you hopefully learn something in the process) If you don't respect the race enough to finish it after you've made a mistake, how do you expect anyone else to respect and support you as a racer? I know this is heavy but its fundamental.

Your defense circles around good performance on the track that presumably indicates you have some natural talent. It seems to me that maturity and appropriate social skills will determine the degree to which you develope that talent and reach your goals.

There's an old adage that says "You have two ears and one mouth." Meaning, use your ears more than your mouth to pay attention to the wise racers around you in the form of Skippy instructors and fellow competitors. If you don't show respect for the craft itself and the people (of both genders) now in your company who are seriously devoted to furthering that craft, you won't be around it for very long no matter how talented you are.

John didn't say you were incompetent, he said, "Suggest you get more practice relating respectfully (to women presumably) as well as in cars."

[badgersid]

PAT WELL SAID YOU ARE A RACER.I GUESS HE NEVER HEARD (WINNER'S NEVER QUIT QUITTERS NEVER WIN) LET'S NOT FORGET HE IS YOUNG WHICH IS FORGIVABLE.AND AS FAR AS HIS SPELLING LET'S JUST SAY HE MAKE'S ME LOOK GOOD.

NOW FOR RICH RETHINK WHAT YOU ARE DOING THIS IS THE SECOND WEEKEND YOU RETIRED. IF YOU DIDN'T RETIRE IN V I R YOU WOULD HAVE PICKED UP 4 POSITIONS.

MAYBE SOME RACING IN A REGIONAL WILL HELP . WE ALL WANT TO SEE PEOPLE IMPROVE.

PAT IS CORRECT YOU MUST BEHAVE LIKE A RACER TO BE ONE

IF PAT OR MYSELF ARE WRONG PLEASE POINT

OUT WHICH PRO RACER'S YOU HAVE SEEN RETIRE. FOR THE SAME REASONS AS YOURSELF
MAYBE A DINNER WITH SOME OF THE OLDER GUY'S WILL HELP YOU.

[rheistand]

Dalydue,
first i understood the mistake that was made with the post and never took it personally. In regards to what you said. For the most part you are right. I can not spell, i did not run a 47.8. change the 4 to a 5. and as far as the rest of what you said is concerned, well much of it is true and you are most certainly entitled to your opinion. the only thing i will say about one comment is that the avoidance of crash damage plays a part in my disision making proscess when desiding to park the car. i am not the only person i have to answer to when i crash. i will also say that much of the opinion you have formed in regardes to my social behavior has been formed based on the posts made on this thread, and not based on my interactions with instructors and competitors at race weekends. please feel free to inquire with instructers and competitors that know me, if you have any conserns.In Vir when i retired it was do to suspention damage sustained before the race. Again i already had crash damage and did not want to push a bad posision and create more problems then i already had. Schumacher retired twiced because he was out of the points and his tires were bald. i retired because i was out of the points and because i had a broken car. now that being said i have retired more than most if not all of my fellow competitors and mabye the real problem that needs to be adressed is the mistakes i have made to put myself in that posision to begin with. i could be wrong of course and dispite what anyone says in response to this only time will tell. i would also like to say that i will no longer be posting anything on this thread unless asked directly to do so. i feel that this thread has run its course. if anyone wishes to respond to my final comments and or has aditional things to say i will of course read them and take them for what they are worth. although some of the info has been insightful and i promise to think over and anilize any and all of the critisism that has been brought my way to better my self and my race craft, i do feel that some of the opinions formed have been strong and based on incomplete information, and is therefore my main reason for making this desision. if anyone sees me at a race weekend please feel free to say hello. perhaps contrary to some beliefs formed on this site i am a pretty friendly guy and get along with almost everyone at the skippy weekends. before i end this post i would like to say that i do appriciate the responses to this thread i know that everone is only trying to help. see ya at road america.

[badgersid]

HERE YOU GO AGAIN . QUITTING WE ARE ONLY TRYING TO HELP NOBODY SAID YOU WERE A BAD GUY BUT IF YOU CONTINUE TO QUIT YOU WILL NOT GO VERY FAR IN LIFE.AS FAR AS CRASH DAMAGE IT COME'S WITH RACING.WINNING IS WHAT IT IS ABOUT

DONT QUIT DONT QUIT DONT QUIT DONT QUIT

[dalyduo]

Hey Richard,

It's understandable that you might feel gun shy as you've received both thoughtful support and strong criticism from people you don't know here. I've never met you and I've made statements that may not, in fact, apply to you personally. I look forward to meeting you in person and handing you your first dictionary. :-) (that is a joke) The fact that you will consider comments made here and understand the spirit in which they are intended is terrific.

You were courageous to ask for help in the first place. You broke new ground with this thread and revealed some hidden depth in our ranks when Cheekychica and John Greist responded with both factual information and thoughtful compassion.

I do hope we get to meet some time and that you're receiving balanced support for the issues that prompted this thread in the first place.

Pat

[cdh]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

I look forward to meeting you in person and handing you your first dictionary. :-) (that is a joke)

Why not type your post in MS Word, or some other program with spell-check, then copy/paste it into the post dialog box? It will eliminate the distracting spelling errors and educate you at the same time.

my 2 pennies

.

[ML Peter Ludwig]

i luv evryone

[macdod]

Dear Mr. Ludwig,

We can only surmise, based on the date of your posting (and in the absence of any other reference), that your note of yesterday was in response to the 1st anniversary of the legalization of gay marriages in Massachusetts. Although we encourage and support your right to proclaim universal affection towards your fellow man, we would however, suggest that you find a more audience appropriate site for such public promulagations.

Signed,
The TJR Editorial Staff

P.S. We wuv u 2