In my head, I envisioned more asphalt. If it is dirt, the line certainly wouldn't change.
My only laps around Lime Rock were my 3-Day school (July 2005) and the recent lapping day (June 1). In the 3-Day, I distinctly recall the instructors telling us to make sure that we had the car straight by the time we reached the crest of the Uphill because there was dirt to the left of the track. On my first trip around on the lapping day, I was surprised to see what appeared to be relatively new asphalt for a few feet to the left of the main track past the crest (i.e., similar to the rain-line portion of the uphill part). Maybe it is my imagination, but I do think that there was some asphalt added to the left side of the level portion just after the crest of the Uphill (and I used that asphalt a couple of times too).
The configuration of the new retaining wall bears no resemblance to any other "protective barrier" at any race course I know of. It's a stupid design.
I think the wall was designed by a moron who knows nothing about racing, has never been in a race car, and looked up "protective barrier" on the internet and used the plans he found for "bastion walls" used on "polygon shaped" medieval castles as his template. The fact that the uphill armco looks exactly the same as the attached castle bastion should scare the shit out of all of you who drive Lime Rock. The only good use of such structures are as impenetrable barriers (which Pat tested quite well, I may say. Good show old chap..oh, sorry about the old.) to prevent sieges from attacking armies - not as frickin' safety barriers on a race track!
Disclaimer: The fact that the name of the structure used (bastion) bears a striking (I can't believe I just said striking!!!!!) resemblance to the name of any current or past Skippy driver is purely circumstantial and we take no responsiblity (now that sounds familar) for the damage (I can't believe I just said damage) this reference may cause.
Since you aren't widening the straight between the Uphill and West Bend you aren't widening the radius of the uphill turn any more than it already is. There has always been that extra few feet of pavement, to the left of the track edge white line that runs out at the crest of the hill, used for the rain line and fast, accurate dry liners at the very top. (Where some like to drop a wheel and kick up dirt for those on their tail. ) You could have two acres of flat pavement on the outside of that turn and it wouldn't increase the radius one inch because you have to wind up in the same place when you finish the turn. It might increase the psychological radius, meaning the pucker factor is lessened by a less harsh barrier at the top but we won't know until they actually make the change. I suspect it won't make that much difference because you are still going to have an expensive if somewhat personally safer off if you lose it there.
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You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
damn thats nasty ! I dont remember that being there the last time i was at lime rock albeit that was 10/00
but geez who's bright idea was it to make such a huge target at the top of the uphill !!
Mid-Corner Speed Master / Advanced Member (1,000+ Posts)
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Re: Uphill battle
Pat... I think we can all agree that whether or not there is increased radius depends on a lot of factors that we can't predict. The point is, the boneheads that made the changes last time didn't foresee the consequences. It needs to be changed again, and whoever gets the assignment ought to consult with someone who understands racing. I nominate Papa Carl.
Donald... Very funny. But, you need a job dude!
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Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today to get into this thing called life...
If the racing surface remains the same and the track out point to stay on paved road remains the same I'm hard pressed to see how the radius can change due to a barrier but I'm always willing to be enlightenend.
BTW Donald showed up at Racing America in his new Sparco "Uphill Italian Gothic" racing gear and put on quite the exhibition! (Be sure and note the new "Red Bull" two tone Carbonex.
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
If the racing surface remains the same and the track out point to stay on paved road remains the same I'm hard pressed to see how the radius can change due to a barrier
- it can't, what is the mystery?
a proper Bastion
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"Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBE
Before we make harsh judgments about current changes it should be noted that Skip Barber (the individual) and his staff have been responsible for more barrier safety improvements at LRP than any previous owner. There are many reasons why things move slowly there. The town restricts the number of public events they can host per year. They can't start an unmuffled engine or race on a Sunday and the track is dark during winter months, all reasons why revenue for staff and upgrades is always in short supply.
Many aspects of track improvement (specifically runoff areas) are restricted by property boundaries and running water at strategic locations. (The track sits squarely in a floodplain.) Even if the resources were there to make wholesale changes there are few easy options.
No one with business school training would agree to start Lime Rock Park today given all the restrictions it currently labors under. Fortunately Skip and his staff continue to overcome those obstacles to preserve and continue its legacy as an important and historic racing venue. They always have to do more with less because of the chronically limited revenue stream.
The good news is that as Lime Rock Park approaches its 50th anniversary, new race savy management and promotional staff are preparing a renaissance for the track that should launch it safely into its next 50 years.
Check out these two links that explain how the track got started as the single obsession of Jim Vail, and a list of milestone dates that reads like a who's who of racing legends over the past 50 years.
Where NASCAR has the resources to build their own safety research facility to explore car and barrier safety for the tracks they run on. LRP on its shoestring budget has a more primitive trial and error method that takes some fine-tuning to get right. Thats where we are now. My 2 cents.
Say... didn't you win your first race there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJAmok
Pat... I think we can all agree that whether or not there is increased radius depends on a lot of factors that we can't predict. The point is, the boneheads that made the changes last time didn't foresee the consequences. It needs to be changed again, and whoever gets the assignment ought to consult with someone who understands racing. I nominate Papa Carl.
Donald... Very funny. But, you need a job dude!
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You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
No money changed hands there Michael, I'm just very fond of the place.
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You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
no kidding...Pat. limited revenue???? you must be joking.. Lime Rock being in the most prime spot in the WHOLE country to take advantage of the country clubber auto enthusiasts is not hurting for revenue. At a reported cost of rental exceding 13.5K A DAY.. just for the track, not counting ins. EMS tow rig etc. makes L.R. one of the most expensive tracks to rent IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY.... and how many tracks around are rented EVERY day, from the time they open in March well into Nov.????? If anyone thinks that LACK OF $$$$$ is what would hold Skip back from making the proper improvements to HIS facility... you need to take a stroll through HIS garageS again..!!! No sympathy here from a guy fighting to make ends meet.
And BTW.. not to say I told ya so... But I DID.... I spoke of jus these kind of dangers way back when the first pics of the "improved" uphill were shown, noting jus how tragic the results of a hit at those certain angles have turnd out in the past. It doesn't take a law school drop-out to see that the work in the uphill has turned a dangerous barrier into a deadly one.. Only one thing to do.. DON'T USE IT
and I'd copy from my old uphill post... but I'm too damn puter iliterate..
aww how sweet.. thanks for holdin my hand Doug .. NO.. really thanks for making it much more accesable.. BTW just before the Grand Am weekend Matt Sklarz and I were observing the uphill, and debated about painting a black widow and "the widowmaker" on that piece of gaurdrail sticking out... I guess we smartened up... Alot of other people probally wouldn't have found so much humor in our statement of the OBVIOUS
Well shut my mouth Roger... Forgive my not realizing you were the authority on the demographics of country clubber auto enthusiasts for the WHOLE country... and that you've been keeping the scheduling calendar and financial books for Skip Barber and Lime Rock Park all these years. Thanks for setting me straight...
Regarding the uphill... We also voiced our concern 8 posts before yours while putting up those early pictures back in March..."The only catch seems to be at the very top of the hill where the flag stand seems to stand unchanged with its old immovable single layer earthen backed Armco still intact. Curious? Perhaps the photo deceives or doesn't tell the whole story." Little did we know...
The point of the post you mock was not to play the violin for Skip Barber or make excuses for a bad barrier design. It doesn't serve ANYONE to have a dangerous barrier there. The point was to restate my love of the track, and sense of the obstacles that have challenged it as a business for its entire history from the perspective of someone who has gone there for 39 of its 49 years. (When the SBRS had not yet been hatched and Skip Barber only showed his face as a competitor)
Are either of us privy to what it now costs to run the place or how those costs have changed over the years? Of course we aren’t. The owners battle is keeping the track relevant and paying for itself both through physical upgrades and by marketing its history, within the parameters of the restrictions placed onit by the community, so that major race series and sponsors as well as car clubs, the SCCA and SBRS keep it thriving as a race venue and a business. While the owner may have the means to run it at a loss as a special interest club, it is far better to have it thrive on its own as a racing venue that will outlive the perceived deep pockets of an individual owner. That's just my opinion.
Perhaps we cracked the lid on the can of worms that has existed between the track and the school in recent years and that was not our intent. Our only interest is in seeing both the people and the businesses of LRP and the SBRS thrive. (Including you Roger! )
As the person who hit the barrier I'm pleased to hear reports that quick temporary action has been taken to correct the problem with plans for more permanent changes in the works. Looking forward to being back on track at LRP soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcote
no kidding...Pat. limited revenue???? you must be joking.. Lime Rock being in the most prime spot in the WHOLE country to take advantage of the country clubber auto enthusiasts is not hurting for revenue. At a reported cost of rental exceding 13.5K A DAY.. just for the track, not counting ins. EMS tow rig etc. makes L.R. one of the most expensive tracks to rent IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY.... and how many tracks around are rented EVERY day, from the time they open in March well into Nov.????? If anyone thinks that LACK OF $$$$$ is what would hold Skip back from making the proper improvements to HIS facility... you need to take a stroll through HIS garageS again..!!! No sympathy here from a guy fighting to make ends meet.
And BTW.. not to say I told ya so... But I DID.... I spoke of jus these kind of dangers way back when the first pics of the "improved" uphill were shown, noting jus how tragic the results of a hit at those certain angles have turnd out in the past. It doesn't take a law school drop-out to see that the work in the uphill has turned a dangerous barrier into a deadly one.. Only one thing to do.. DON'T USE IT
and I'd copy from my old uphill post... but I'm too damn puter iliterate..
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Well shut my mouth Roger... Forgive my not realizing you were the authority on the demographics of country clubber auto enthusiasts for the WHOLE country... and that you've been keeping the scheduling calendar and financial books for Skip Barber and Lime Rock Park all these years. Thanks for setting me straight...
Regarding the uphill... We also voiced our concern 8 posts before yours while putting up those early pictures back in March..."The only catch seems to be at the very top of the hill where the flag stand seems to stand unchanged with its old immovable single layer earthen backed Armco still intact. Curious? Perhaps the photo deceives or doesn't tell the whole story." Little did we know...
The point of the post you mock was not to play the violin for Skip Barber or make excuses for a bad barrier design. It doesn't serve ANYONE to have a dangerous barrier there. The point was to restate my love of the track, and sense of the obstacles that have challenged it as a business for its entire history from the perspective of someone who has gone there for 39 of its 49 years. (When the SBRS had not yet been hatched and Skip Barber only showed his face as a competitor)
Are either of us privy to what it now costs to run the place or how those costs have changed over the years? Of course we aren’t. The owners battle is keeping the track relevant and paying for itself both through physical upgrades and by marketing its history, within the parameters of the restrictions placed onit by the community, so that major race series and sponsors as well as car clubs, the SCCA and SBRS keep it thriving as a race venue and a business. While the owner may have the means to run it at a loss as a special interest club, it is far better to have it thrive on its own as a racing venue that will outlive the perceived deep pockets of an individual owner. That's just my opinion.
Perhaps we cracked the lid on the can of worms that has existed between the track and the school in recent years and that was not our intent. Our only interest is in seeing both the people and the businesses of LRP and the SBRS thrive. (Including you Roger! )
As the person who hit the barrier I'm pleased to hear reports that quick temporary action has been taken to correct the problem with plans for more permanent changes in the works. Looking forward to being back on track at LRP soon.
Hey now... easy there Pat..... I wasn't trying to be attacking if that's what it sounded like... AND I wasn't MOCKING anyone or anything. I think Micheal was the one that asked if that was a paid announcement, not I.. that was a good one BTW Micheal..
And of course no, I am not privy to any of those financial records.. but what I AM privy to is common sense, which scares alot of people sometimes I can tell you though my own experiences of trying to put events together that LRP is overall prob the most expensive of the NE tracks to rent anyway. The Glen, Pocono, NHIS. And, that by spending plenty of time at all these tracks, whether working for Skip, or working other driving events, that I see those other places idle from time to time during the summer. The ONLY time LRP is idle is Sundays...I don't need any kind of schedule to know that Pat.. I'm close enough I can HEAR it...
Now..again, I have NO kind of financial accrediations, but...the info from above leads me to believe that Skip is OK as far as the $$$$$$ part of things, thank you.... Just making the point that a dangerous situation made even more dangerous should never be defended with the excuse of $$$$$$$$ Especially if someone invovled in the situation has the $$$$$ to build a car collection worth more than alot of people will ever make in thier lifetime.. Just me, but I don't think that would be a very responsible thing to do....
And not trying to trash Skip himself, don't get me wrong. I too Pat applaud and appreciatte all that Skip himself has done for racers and auto enthusiasts alike over the years. And, it's not like HE was the one coming up with excuses for the less then ideal changes made to the uphill..
Being the school dropout that I am too Pat, I have spent my fair time around construction enviroments. Usuallly at the business end of a shovel. Some of what I learned there is that 9 1/2 times outa 10 for the same $$$$ that you can build something wrong, you can build it RIGHT for the same..
It's jus alil crazy AND scary that the season opened up with something that was so obviously worsened by the changes. At least OBVIOUS to anyone that has sat in a racecar anyway. I have to wonder how someone like Skip himself or MIke Rand could stand down at the apex of the uphill, looking up at that nice big, shiny piece of almost immovable gaurdrail, staring at you from almost head-on, and say, "oh yeah, that's better"....
In a way it seems almost like what Marco and his dad had to say about being "Cheevered" << (a new term I plan on spreading through schools and weekends like "doin a Danny" ) on the way to turn 9 at the Glen. If he saw "me" up along side, it's inexcusable that he purposely took me out, and if he wasn't aware that there was a car along side, then that IS REALLY scarey, and the guy doesn't belong on racetrack. << Marco's words BTW, not mine, even though my feelings aren't all that far off. And I WAS a Cheever fan, till he started bad mouthing EVERY young driver on camera that makes a mistake, when he has plenty to apologize for most of the time.
What was I talkin bout again?????
oh yeah.. ssoooo.... either way, since there was alot of effort put into the work in the uphill, I would hope that Skip was actually keeping somewhat of an eye on it himself. To look at the results and say "good" is scary, to not look at the work goin on there, is also kinda scary....
OK nuff of that... jus wanted to make myself more clear on where I was comin from Pat...AND make it clear that I wasn't putting down Skip, or you for defending him WE're all friends here, aren't we??
But like others have said, the GOOD news is that yes, right away there were small measures taken to try make the situation alil better, and it seems like LRP is thinking hard about their next step to solve that piece of the problem. I can tell you that I did see for myself, George Ayres and Todd S. meeting with LRP officials, touring the track and talking about the changes and percievably what can be done to further the safety aspect.
And Pat, I'm VERY glad that you escaped your "brush" with the new wall no worse for the wear, and that our first "big one" there was big enough to hopefully improve that section very quickly, but not "big" enough where you couldn't have continued your day..
good day to all..and excuse me if you don't hear from me for awhile, I think I've just used my posting allotment for the next month or so... ohh yeah...I can hear all your hearts breakin from here about my absence..
Sorry if I misread your intention and over-reacted a wee bit. So hard to hear vocal inflection and see facial expressions using smillies.
Definitely hope you don't fade away now, as your observations are irreverent, refreshing and wise. Thanks for a most excellent response that is totally appreciated. The whole point of this site is to air out different points of view on issues relating to our passion, (and safety) and yours is illuminating and practical.
I agree on your common sense points that a bad job is as much work as a good one, with the only difference being forethought. It is hard to imagine how that uphill modification got locked in when we were all looking at pictures in March and scratching our heads. I don't think money was ever the issue just oversight and lack of attention.
I differ to your experience with LRP and its costs. I'm sure its relative closeness to NYC and the fact that the racing school and related corporate events fill a lot of days, all contribute to its full schedule. I would wonder if all of those days are paid at the full rate you quoted but either way your point is well taken.
This is totally conjecture on my part but when Skip owned the school and the track I'm guessing there was less pressure to make the track pay for itself since the school & series could pick up a lot of the slack directly or indirectly. Now, since he doesn't control the school, more attention is being paid to having the track succeed on its own. (Can't imagine if the school stopped using LRP it wouldn't impact them greatly.) In a business sense he can no longer count on that revenue always being there so he has to develop a plan to succeed with or without SBRS. Again, I'm not playing the violin for Skip just saying from a business plan standpoint you'd have no choice but to look for ways of making the track less dependent on the school to assure the tracks success going forward.
Anyway... Thanks again for your comments and clarifications. Sorry I misread some of your intentions.
The good news is we were fortunate to have a track-altering event without having to have a life-altering event. We are grateful beyond words for that and your kind words as well Roger.
Please do keep posting!
Pat
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You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
The racingschool.com thread was probably longer (certainly felt longer) until Carlos removed all his posts. :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlippert
The length of this thread has to be near a Juicy record.
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You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
I would wonder if all of those days are paid at the full rate
Yes, I'm pretty sure they are. Very impressive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcote
good day to all..and excuse me if you don't hear from me for awhile, I think I've just used my posting allotment for the next month or so... ohh yeah...I can hear all your hearts breakin from here about my absence..
Roger, your posts are always passionate, insightful and entertaining. You're definitely a vibrant part of this community, so don't even think of going away. Even for a second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlippert
The length of this thread has to be near a Juicy record.
It's actually 10th or so. The 'Hottest Threads' Module on the left side of the Archives Page (click on Archives in the Team Juicy Header) will give you the list in descending order.
If what you say is true re: LRP... That is impressive
Before looking at the archive I should change my earlier thought and say the HANS post HAS to be the longest... I imagine Peter's thread after his bad day at Watkin's Glen is probably right up there. There was a long one with that guy who created that Frankenstein alternative to the HANS device that got kicked around for quite a while, and I'm pretty sure the Racingschools.com one was longer than that. OK... time to look.
Ohh. and yes Roger... don't even think about it...
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Mid-Corner Speed Master / Advanced Member (1,000+ Posts)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,000
Re: Uphill battle
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcote
... AND I wasn't MOCKING anyone or anything. I think Micheal was the one that asked if that was a paid announcement, not I.. that was a good one BTW Micheal..
Hey Roger... thanks for throwing me under the bus, bro! I can do that all by myself. For example:
Can we end this thread now? I think I speak on behalf of the entire platoon when I say...
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Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today to get into this thing called life...
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Maximizing Exit Speed / Advanced Member (10+ Posts)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Fairfield County, CT
Posts: 24
Re: Uphill battle
Great thread and good civil debate. Nice to see. I am sure you guys know about this already but I saw an excellent Chris Szwedo documentary about LRP on PBS recently. I bought the DVD too.
Yes, 'The Secret Valley of Racing' is a great movie... I haven't thought about it in a while. A must have for any Lime Rock fan. I'll have to start a DVD section in the links system and put that in there. Thanks, Brian.
His "Secret Valley of Racing" film is a few years old now but is an artistic time capsule of the track in every sense.
Caught the second half of the recent CT PBS showing of his new film on John Fitch's recent failed attempt (motor problems) at re-setting the land speed record for the original Gullwing Mercedes class.
His films are beautifully shot. They take enough time with their subjects to reveal depth and humanity with caring smart visual detail and thoughtful interwoven interviews. As a fan of racing and its history Chris takes you farther into the journey you were already enjoying and leaves you to your own conclusions.
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
no, the World Series thread is great, let things run their course
That thread was great reading, especially for a lifelong Cubs and Red Sox fan. My hat goes off to Jim Craige for hanging tough (and making me laugh and chuckle too) and for Macdod for making a very classy entry into the fray. (Donald, they knew you were there all along.) And the happy ending was so sweet.
My hat goes off to Jim Craige for hanging tough (and making me laugh and chuckle too) and for Macdod for making a very classy entry into the fray. (Donald, they knew you were there all along.) And the happy ending was so sweet.
WatertownNewbie,
Well if you must talk about me, who am I to stop you. Your post is sure to make this discussion, which now being about me, go on forever insuring its place in TJR as the longest thread ever.
Wow, just looked at the first third of that baseball thread and it is awfully good. Guess we blocked it out due to the unhappy (For New Yorkers) ending. No regrets... The streak had to end some time. Great journey though.
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You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Pat,
You obviously missed my little hint about ending this thread.
If you don't stop typing you're going to ruin my reputation as a thread killer. Which, if it were ever to come about would force me to resort to VIOLENCE!
Pat,
You obviously missed my little hint about ending this thread.
If you don't stop typing you're going to ruin my reputation as a thread killer. Which, if it were ever to come about would force me to resort to VIOLENCE!
Silence is Golden
Presently still your friend
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Racing is like a drug. The more you do it the more addicted you become.
Pat, hats off to you. You cannot really call yourself a race car driver until you have had a crash like that at speed, survived, and are willing to go again. I still am not sure I want to run Lime Rock. My Grand Am team missed the event. After your story, I am almost relieved.
Keep driving. Now that you know the safety equipment works, you gain confidence that you will be all right. Nice recovery!