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  #51  
Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I think we should all have slicks. They should be hard enough, if possible, too last the three day race week end. Every race car in the world rides on slicks why do SB cars have to use street tires?
We are after all on a race track in a formula car. SLICKS all the way.
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  #52  
Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I wrote a long comment and it disappeared when I hit "post". Sy, that sucked.

Short version:

1. Stay with treads for all regionals. It's a no brainer. The guys are learning how to drive and can't really yet benefit, or worse could have more problems, with slicks.

2. Nationals could use slicks to train their drivers to "manage" their tires. We used to have to do this on hot days with treaded tires which overheated and lost grip. It mimiced what happens to soft slick tires when overdriven. The BFG's are mostly immune to this, which is a good thing, in general. As a driver I'm in favor of using slick tires at some "no chance of rain" venues.

3. The cost of slicks is large compared to their benefits. The costs include a greater cost of commitment by the tire manufacturer of both R&D, production, and shipping. This makes it more expensive to be a sponser, tougher for the engineers and marketing guys to sell being one to management, and harder for SBR to keep one. Time pressure on the series to change tires if rain develops is a cost, as is flatspotting changes, and other time related to having two different tires, one of which has limited use.

4. AZRCD says that the suspension should be developed around a tire, and goes on to talk about the woes involving the new setup when changing to a new tire in FF. He has a point. We have had our problems with setup. Some of these problems have cost people. We cannot design a suspension around a tire, as JP points out, so let us DESIGN SUSPENSION, SETUP PARAMETERS, AND ALIGNMENT PARAMETERS AROUND AN "AVERAGE" PERFORMANCE TIRE. We need flexability, lots of flexability, to avoid coming face to face with a handling gremlin.

5. BTW, F1 tires are "slicks". The grove is just for show. Ask Kubica.

6. Thank "oldman" and me for not boring you with arcane tire lingo.
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  #53  
Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Fresh... that car's tires and what we run aren't even from the same planet.
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Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

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Originally Posted by 999
Fresh... that car's tires and what we run aren't even from the same planet.
What planet are you referring to? I think they are very similar in the way they look, both have similar tread, both are black, round, made from rubber, filled with air, they are kinda similar...... Seriously, if you are referring to the level of performance I agree, I was referring to a likeness in appearance, at least to my eyes.
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Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

For the record I like the look of slicks as well, very ahhhh....slick, the different body colors add a lot also...

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Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

The new car does look a bit odd with treads, they seem out of place. The ones on the prototype seem much too thin for the car also. Fatter usually better looking when it comes to tires. Here is an exaggerated remedy....
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  #57  
Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris
I wrote a long comment and it disappeared when I hit "post". Sy, that sucked.
Chris, it took me over 2 years to get you to come and make a post, and what happens? You got screwed. Sorry about that! Talk about Murphy's law...

But thank you for coming on and commenting, it means a lot to us all. It would be great to have your insight more often.

(FYI folks - 'chris' is Chris Wilcox, current and 27 time Masters National Champion)
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  #58  
Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Looks very cool to have the roll-over bar below the driver's head too, but I wouldn't suggest we go there either
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  #59  
Old 10-06-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Based on my experience driving both the slicks and treaded tires used at SBRS:
  1. I’ve always found it easier to find the braking and cornering limit on the slicks. Particularly when I’m returning after a long layoff (to let the bank account recharge), I’ve had much less trouble getting my threshold braking skills back up to snuff when the cars were on slicks vs. treads.
  2. My impression is that the relatively hard slicks that we used up until 2004 or 2005 didn’t flat spot as easily as the treaded tires we used both prior to and after the slicks. I assume if we went to soft slicks, however, flat spots would be an problem there as well.
  3. A negative for slicks is that in some situations, they provide much less control if you get off of the asphalt. Rumor had it that at certain tracks, average crash damage per weekend doubled during the slick era . . . . . whereas at other tracks the switch to slicks seemed to have made very little difference in the average cumulative damage.
All things considered, I prefer hard slicks to treaded tires. But given the cost and logistic issues, I suspect treads are the way to go for everything but the nationals.

I’m dead set against soft slicks for a number of reasons:
  1. Rapid tire wear raises overall cost of racing.
  2. Higher cornering speeds = bigger accidents
  3. In shared car situations (i.e. all but the nationals), you get screwed when the other people driving your car don’t take good care of the tires.
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  #60  
Old 10-06-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Seriously, the prototype looks ridiculous with the skinny treaded tires. If thats going to be the car, it has to have slicks!
This is my first half a year with SB and I plan to continue on regardless, but i do feel a little bit like a second class customers. I don't understand why the young kiddies in the nationals get all the extra bells and whistles.
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  #61  
Old 10-06-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

The kiddies pay more, but even though we say kiddies, anyone can do it. I've done it and I'm over 20, just a little
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Old 10-06-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanagro
Seriously, the prototype looks ridiculous with the skinny treaded tires. If thats going to be the car, it has to have slicks! This is my first half a year with SB and I plan to continue on regardless, but i do feel a little bit like a second class customers. I don't understand why the young kiddies in the nationals get all the extra bells and whistles.
Yes, the National is a great series, just more $$$.

To that point many of us want to see costs kept reasonable, Skip has been the greatest deal in racing for many years, we want to keep it that way, as does management. Slicks have been shown to increase damage at weekends, A LOT. They are also more expensive from a material and labor perspective. I like the slicks but I also like the treads very much, you can burn off record setting laps on them, so what is it? If it's only their appearance, I'll take the treads and lower costs, I can photoshop slicks in our race pics!
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Old 10-06-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Hey JP - hope your shoulder is healing well. What are the tire dimensions the Star Mazda's run? I was looking at the BFG site and 275/40ZR17 seem to be the widest of the style SB has been using. Since the prototype is so similar to your car's chassis (in appearance anyway), knowing your tire sizes would shed light on what SB's options might be with the BFG treads.

This surely is what a proper race car should look like, get out your wallets though - great looking car JP

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Old 10-06-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlippert
Looks very cool to have the roll-over bar below the driver's head too, but I wouldn't suggest we go there either
we wont even begin to discuss how frighteningly dangerous GP cars were in that era.
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  #65  
Old 10-06-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Te Star Mazda wheels are Front 9”w x 13”d, rear 11’w x 13”d, I don't know the tire size offhand.
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Old 10-06-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Yeah, saw those wheel dimensions. If an 11" wide wheel = 279.4 mm, we can assume the rear tire is about 280 mm wide, fronts would be about 225 mm, within the range of the BFG's, but I have no idea how to properly size a tire with such different characteristics.
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  #67  
Old 10-08-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I think threads for the regionals and masters and slicks for the national champs are the way to go for all the reasons previously cited: the threads run in wet or dry, I assume they last longer, tolerate heat cycles better, and give more feedback to the driver.
The national champs need to learn how to manage slicks as they move on to higher series.
As to flat spotting the tires and discarding them, I don't understand why, with all the thread depth available, SBRS can't shave them down a little and make them round again.
Let's not forget that most of us in the regionals are just there for the fun and what does it really matter as long as we are fairly equipped?
As to comments regarding "real" racing, I consider what we are doing as real racing, albiet not at life threating speeds. I find the RT2000 to be a well balanced car; who ever had one that exhibited over or understeer when properly driven? As to the car looking "sexy", what did you have in mind to do with the car beside driving it? (Pervert!)
I find the driving experience enjoyable and when I feel the need for more speed, I'll spend my retirement fund on an Atlantic and really scare myself to death rather than retire to a long, dull life.
The series does offer slicks to those who really feel a desire to run them; you just have to pay the extra cost to run with the national champs. I do like the idea of offering them to those who want to do a computer car or practice for the additonal cost of the difference between the slicks and threads.
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  #68  
Old 10-08-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Treads that are sponser provided. They need to last from friday to sunday. It's a fact that treads give easier to read feed back. Skippy racing should be about driver skill in safe cars at reasonable cost. For a slick to work it has to be able to heat cycle 50 times without becoming a brick.To do that it has to be hard as a brick to start with. The tires have to last all weekend or you would have to bring at least 120 extra tires and tire changing equip.to every track. Not very cost efective.
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  #69  
Old 10-08-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

One last thought on tires -- we should also keep in mind the physical demands placed on the driver as grip levels go up. I, for one, already have to do neck strengthening exercises for three weeks in advance of a race at Road America, or I can't last a full practice day without having my neck give out in the carousel. Running the cornering forces up to a level where every driver needs to undertake a serious physical condition program to survive a weekend at any track –not just Road America—doesn’t seem like it is consistent with the sort of recreational racing that Skip Barber seeks to foster at the regional and Master’s National level.

This argument, by the way, really applies to the overall effect of the wing and tire package selected for the new car, not just the tires alone.
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Old 10-08-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Guys, the Tire Survey will be extended for one more day. So we'll introduce Survey #3 tomorrow night.
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  #71  
Old 10-09-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Quote:
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One last thought on tires --I can't last a full practice day without having my neck give out in the carousel. .
A good excersize I do that helps is to lay on my side with a 10 pound weight plate balanced on the side of my head. I hold it level for 2 1/2 minutes per side. Disclaimer: check with your doctor first
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Old 10-09-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Quote:
Originally Posted by jp56
A good excersize I do that helps is to lay on my side with a 10 pound weight plate balanced on the side of my head. I hold it level for 2 1/2 minutes per side. Disclaimer: check with your doctor first
I do the essentially the same exercise and find it really helps.
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  #73  
Old 10-09-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Another disclaimer to anyone else who is about to do the above mentioned neck exercise: Do NOT start with 10 pounds. Start with one or two pounds, and work your way up every couple of weeks. This is a VERY risky exercise unless done properly, so be very careful. Both JP and DL are extraordinarily fit and that's why they can handle that kind of weight.
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  #74  
Old 10-09-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Riding a road bike bent into a pretzel shape at least twice a week for 2 hours or more each time also works. Head gets heavy and neck tired toward the end of rides (not to mention your butt), but then no trouble in the race car.
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  #75  
Old 10-09-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

This post will close this thread.

Thanks to everyone for posting your comments on Tires. As I hoped, we were granted many views and opinions on the choices we may have at Skip Barber regarding the rubber that meets the road. Here is my summary of your words.

1. Many voted for treads in Regional, with slightly less but still a majority for treads in Masters National, while most voted for slicks in the regular National Championship. Everyone understood the logistical benefits of running a tread at the Regional events, especially when there are 5 groups. Some of you also pointed out the less obvious costs associated with a tire manufacturer making two tires instead of one for our series.

2. A few asked about centerlock wheels to expedite tire changes. It's a good idea that might appear on our new cars. Fingers crossed.

3. Some complained we don't have enough tires at some race weekends, rendering a few unlucky drivers to race on the "least" flat-spotted tires. Note taken.

4. One mention was for R-compound tires, similar to what's used in autocross and SCCA club racing.

5. There was another mention that F1 cars have treads.

6. One veteran driver pointed out the importance of matching the tire to the car's suspension geometry.

7. One poster asked us about shaving the tires to help reduce flat-spotting and increase durability. We actually did shave tires for one race weekend at Lime Rock when we were still using the Traction T/A. The rewards didn't justify the cost in that case. With the g-Force Sport, shaving has not yet been tried, but our engineers are not yet recommending it. While the g-Force Sport can flat-spot like any tire, it has shown excellent durability compared to other products we've used in the past.

8. Physical demands of high grip tires might not play into the hands of the recreational racer.

If I may, I'd like to commend you all for understanding the logistical issues of using a single tire type vs multiple types at Regional events. I also agree the treads are big fun to race on. At certain tracks, I like them better than our vintage hard compound slick. It is possible the next generation National tire will be a different slick. Let's see what happens.

Thank you all once again for posting. Thanks again to BFGoodrich for giving us a tremendous product and saving our butts in many fast corners over the years.

Stay tuned for our next Survey!
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