Pipe dream?
:: For anyone participating or considering participating in any driving or racing school, here is the place to ask questions and share your experiences.
I've been a lifelong race fan and have always wanted to participate. One thing and another has gotten in the way, however, and I've never managed to have the time and the money simultaneously. I've spent a lot of both in aviation over the years, flying aerobatics, building homebuilts (1.5 completed so far), instructing in warbirds, etc. Finally, it's time for Skip Barber.
I'm sure that I'll love it and, barring any unpleasant and unforeseen surprises, my question is this: Is there any hope of a guy starting at my age (42) and being able to make a living racing? Not being rich, but simply making a living driving open-wheel cars. Am I just fooling myself that it's possible?
If it's not a complete pipe dream, how should I proceed following the 3-day class? Two-day advanced class, lapping, etc.? Then what? Is it possible to get sponsorship for the race series, or is that all necessarily out of pocket?
Thanks in advance for any guidance and advice... :-)
Mid-Corner Speed Master / Advanced Member (1,000+ Posts)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chatham, NY
Posts: 1,268
Re: Pipe dream?
Well, there's the one about making a small fortune in racing by starting out with a large one.
And the one about the difference between a Skip Barber instructor and a large pepperoni pizza being that the large pepperoni pizza CAN feed a family of four.
That said, the only way to find out is to jump in. It will take a fortuitous combination of skill and finances. You'll find out fast enough via your three-day and two-day advanced schools if you: A. are having fun and B. have the skills and instincts. Of course, you need to add seat time to that mix as well. What SBRS does best is help you develop the first 80-85% of those skills quickly. You bring the last 15-20% to the table. Along the way, you'll develop friendships and connections which can point the rest of the way. The odds aren't great, but a corny friend of mine used to say" Aim for the eagle so you can bag the pheasant and never have to eat crow." Whether you make the big time or not may not matter so much if you find the journey satisfying.
Best of luck. When you're at Lime Rock be sure to say hi. With a last name like yours, I predict greatness.
__________________
QUALIFICATIONS 1987: Davidson: "Sammy Swindell's car runs a normally aspirated stock-block engine with Pontiac heads. It was developed by John Buttera." Palmer: "Wow, yeah, he used to play the sax with Louis Prima." Davidson: "That was Sam Butera." Palmer: "Oh, yeah."
Substitute 'aviation' for 'racing' in that old saw about fortunes and I can attest to the truth of it. Same with flight instruction. :-)
I hear you loud and clear about a & b and the 20% I'll need to bring with me. That said, I'm looking forward to seeing how it works out. I hope I'll be able to bring some piloting instincts to bear, but we'll see how it goes. I'm not counting on the 'big time', but it would be nice not to have to find another, shall we say, more traditional job.
I'm planning to do the 3-day course at Sebring next month. Stay tuned for more questions, no doubt... :-)
you'll have a great time ! Bring piles of cash if you want to get good. It's addicting! You'll never make a living at it, but it is a blast. You started 35 years to late. Few 100k down the road you'll be competitive !!
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 553
Re: Pipe dream?
I think what the others are saying diplomatically is that it is extremely unlikely that you will make an actual living as a professional race car drive in open-wheel race cars (or ALMS or Rolex Grand Am) starting into the sport in your forties. However, there are many options available that will offer highly competitive amateur racing over a wide range of budget capabilities. Odds are highly in favor of it being an expense; best to mitigate it by figuring a way to write it off.
Pretty much been said by others here, but get into the Skip Barber Racing experience regardless. Tough to find a school where you will get up to speed as quickly, have as much fun, meet as many great people, etc etc. The instructors and staff are the best, great fun.
On the old Skip website there was a logo of sorts, the original text said "you don't need tools, spares or a trailer - just a helmet, gloves and desire". To the point of financing racing, I modified the logo a bit
Good luck at Sebring, you will have a blast
(and no matter what you hear, Skip is the best deal in racing bar none)
__________________
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"Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBE
Thanks to all for the warm welcome and generous advice.
I'd pretty much concluded on my own that making a living at this was pure fantasy, hence the 'pipe dream' subject line. Alas. :-)
For the moment, I'll try to contain my enthusiasm and just see where the course takes me. I couldn't agree more about controlling one's own destiny. I aim to have as much fun & competition as my checkbook will stand. If I can find a way to augment that somehow, so much the better.
While it's obviously better to start earlier, I find it hard to believe that one's professional options are closed at 'only' 42 years of age. Wow. I'm still young!! :-)
Mid-Corner Speed Master / Advanced Member (1,000+ Posts)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chatham, NY
Posts: 1,268
Re: Pipe dream?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbalch
While it's obviously better to start earlier, I find it hard to believe that one's professional options are closed at 'only' 42 years of age. Wow. I'm still young!! :-)
You betchur sweete patootie 42 is still young, sonny. Unfortunately, from my perspective, 60 is still young, so what do I know???
__________________
QUALIFICATIONS 1987: Davidson: "Sammy Swindell's car runs a normally aspirated stock-block engine with Pontiac heads. It was developed by John Buttera." Palmer: "Wow, yeah, he used to play the sax with Louis Prima." Davidson: "That was Sam Butera." Palmer: "Oh, yeah."
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 553
Re: Pipe dream?
Danny Sullivan, when he was running the Red Bull Driver search program, commented that he began racing at 21 when he was given a racing school course for a present. He went on to say that today when someone 21 years old comes to him wanting to be a professional race car driver, he advises them to pursue other options; they are already too old.
Ken,
Welcome to the group!
I too began my Skip Barber journey at a young 42 years old and while finances have limited my participation in a big way, I can wholeheartly vouch for what a amazing journey it can be. This past season (2008 eastern series) I finally managed to scrape enough dough together to do a full season, and at the end, at a young 53 years old managed to find the podium a couple of times!
Like others have said here, its an experience you'll never forget, go for it!
Tom
Asking if you have a shot as a pro open-wheel racer before you've done your three-day is like asking if beating Michael Phelps is possible before you've learned to swim. Anything is theoretically possible but let's get you in the pool first and see how you tread water before we put you on the blocks next to Mr. Phelps. :-)
The great thing about racing with Skip is the supportive camaraderie that is experienced at race weekends and other Skip events by both the young and the follicly challenged. Those with great talent and drive are nurtured to reach their full potential just as someone with no expectation of ever standing on a podium. The fundamentals apply to everyone.
Probably better to start with low expectations and be suprised than expect perfection and be disappointed. We've seen overly result oriented middle aged racers squeeze the joy right out of their experience by making gaining a tenth more important than enjoying the journey. They don't usually hang around very long. In fact, those who enjoy the journey the most seem to also make the most forward progress.
Not really worried about you though Ken. If you've built and flown your own aerobatic planes you shouldn't have any problems blending with the Skippy crowd and testing your limits in a race car. It's all chicken soup.
Many long time instructors (and a few drivers) are pilots and/or have serious remote control airplane hobbies. You certainly won't have any problem finding something to chat about.
We'll all look forward to seeing your progress.
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Asking if you have a shot as a pro open-wheel racer before you've done your three-day is like asking if beating Michael Phelps is possible before you've learned to swim. Anything is theoretically possible but let's get you in the pool first and see how you tread water before we put you on the blocks next to Mr. Phelps. :-)
The great thing about racing with Skip is the supportive camaraderie that is experienced at race weekends and other Skip events by both the young and the follicly challenged. Those with great talent and drive are nurtured to reach their full potential just as someone with no expectation of ever standing on a podium. The fundamentals apply to everyone.
Probably better to start with low expectations and be suprised than expect perfection and be disappointed. We've seen overly result oriented middle aged racers squeeze the joy right out of their experience by making gaining a tenth more important than enjoying the journey. They don't usually hang around very long. In fact, those who enjoy the journey the most seem to also make the most forward progress.
Not really worried about you though Ken. If you've built and flown your own aerobatic planes you shouldn't have any problems blending with the Skippy crowd and testing your limits in a race car. It's all chicken soup.
Many long time instructors (and a few drivers) are pilots and/or have serious remote control airplane hobbies. You certainly won't have any problem finding something to chat about.
We'll all look forward to seeing your progress.
Great advice throughout this post. Thanks! I'll try to keep my enthusiasm from putting the proverbial cart before the horse. Or is that CART? :-)
As a member in good standing of the Order of the Follicly Challenged, I entirely agree with you about not squeezing the joy out of the experience by being overly results oriented. That said, I resent the 'middle-aged' comment. I can't be in the middle; I haven't done 10% of the stuff I want to. :-)
The only thing I can remember wanting to do longer than auto racing is flying (and air racing). I've been fortunate to have gotten more out of aviation than I ever hoped (though I still want to race a Corsair at Reno), and I'll absolutely try to enjoy the journey for its own sake.
I'll report progress as it happens and I'm sure I'll have more questions as I go forward.
Wow! this thread really took off, or maybe I was out to lunch. But, I had to reply. I too was a full time racing fan and SUDDENLY, at the age of 42, I attended my three day school.
I too had that idea of making a living in some form of racing. I loved racing and would have loved being a part of it. My Walter Mitty dreams were carefully put to rest by the very supportive instructors. But that didn't curb my enthusiasm for JUST PARTICIPATING. At first I was hoping to be an undiscovered Vintage racing hero; courted by rich owners to drive their priceless race cars at Laguna. NOT!
I soon realized that my racing ambitions were more in line with the social love of driving and other drivers. They are a weird and wonderful gorup. From the instructor, to fellow participants, they all have a story to tell. All you have to do is listen and be carried away by their story. This is 90% of the experience, enjoy it.
As for making a living at 40 in racing, at 40 years young it probably won't happen. But Just ENJOY the experience and learn the craft. Everything you learn at the track can easily be taken to the street and be used to umpress your friends ( and the local constabluary)
I hope to see you at one of my racing weekends. I am a mid pack driver that takes it very seriously in the cockpit, and can't wait to improve. But, as soon as I step out of the car I want to hear about everyone elses experiences
Welcome aboard and have fun with the whole group. Roger Penske is probably not in the pits looking at me as his next driving prospect; but in the car I feel as fast as anyone. "Top of the world Ma!"
Ken,
You are soooo "In the right place" about all of this. Can't wait to meet you.
I'll happily retract the "middle aged" comment. Most of us habitate in a blissfull state of arrested development when it comes to racing. I don't think there's ever been a day at the track when I haven't been humbled by the challenge of doing it well.
Upon reflection there are probably more youthful offenders who get all bound up about being fast and winning because they (and/or their parents) have pressing visions of a professional racing career. That's particularly true in the National Race Series because it's the first serious ladder rung for young men and woman who want to be pros. The regional series is less pressured but no less hard fought and a great place to learn to race at any age.
I see great potential for smiles in your future Ken. Both given and received.
BTW Jim Pace, Bruce MacInnes and Nick Nicholson are all master racer/instructors who also fly their own planes.
After the racing stops... Rob Slonaker, Mark Hamilton Peters, Jason Holehouse, Keith Watts, Phil Lombardi and a gaggle of other instructors almost always fill the skies around race weekend tracks with the joyful noise and aerobatics of both gas and electric powered model planes.
So Ken, the table's set and we've been waiting for you. Grab your knife and fork and dig in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbalch
Great advice throughout this post. Thanks! I'll try to keep my enthusiasm from putting the proverbial cart before the horse. Or is that CART? :-)
As a member in good standing of the Order of the Follicly Challenged, I entirely agree with you about not squeezing the joy out of the experience by being overly results oriented. That said, I resent the 'middle-aged' comment. I can't be in the middle; I haven't done 10% of the stuff I want to. :-)
The only thing I can remember wanting to do longer than auto racing is flying (and air racing). I've been fortunate to have gotten more out of aviation than I ever hoped (though I still want to race a Corsair at Reno), and I'll absolutely try to enjoy the journey for its own sake.
I'll report progress as it happens and I'm sure I'll have more questions as I go forward.
Ken
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Welcome aboard... You've found the right school and the right forum for your entry to road racing... in my much less than humble and very biased opinion! I started where you are (41 and dreaming) about a year and a half ago. I've found that, like Tom and Pat have remarked, the goals of growing personally and having fun far outweigh any specific performance goals. Now, don't get me wrong, I have a burning desire for a podium finish... and to run a full season... and hopefully, ultimately, someday to... you get the point. As for where you land (no flight pun intended), that's entirely up to you. But, be ready for: 1.) Spending more money than a good, solid cocaine habit would cost (a word of advice here - bent cars waste seat time!!!); 2.) Being humbled by teenage girls; 3.) Experiencing more than you can possibly concieve of in terms of sheer joy and excitement; it's a life changer. And, it IS about the journey...
Good luck.
gdr
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"Racing is hard." - Gerardo on vanaround in response to comment about difficulty seeing markings on track...
Now thats a plane! I remember seeing one fly at a Confederate Air Force show in Texas years ago. Absolutely beautiful!! The sound, the speed, all impressive.
Now THAT's an avatar photo if there ever was one. Hope that's Ken at the stick!
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You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Welcome to the fold! Most fun you can have on 4 wheels - with your clothes on! I started out as a teenage dirt oval pit-rat in the late 1960's, but but waited to age 50 to do the 3-day school. I tell you, you can still be delusional at its completion. It took the 2-Day Advanced to wake me up. Best way to ensure your racing budget is to MARRY your sponsor. If that turns out to be a member of the opposite sex, you hit the jackpot, otherwise, you find out just how bad you really want to race.
Now thats a plane! I remember seeing one fly at a Confederate Air Force show in Texas years ago. Absolutely beautiful!! The sound, the speed, all impressive.
There's nothing like it. 2800 ci, 2000 hp, 400+ mph, and gorgeous to boot. What a piece of engineering. My favorite example of mission-specific design. I've sat in one, but the closest I've come to flying anything like it thus far was instructing for awhile in the T-6. Someday!
AND - as opposed to buying, trailering and wrenching your own race car, as the old saying goes...
If it floats, flies or f__'s, it is cheaper to rent.
you are undoubtably familiar with this Ken
Yeah, I've lived, um, I mean 'heard', that one before. No truer words...
That said, I sure got lucky (eventually) in the wife lottery. Mine has supported me in all my endeavors. She's my biggest fan and I couldn't do it without her. In case she's reading this... :-)
Ken,
You are soooo "In the right place" about all of this. Can't wait to meet you.
I see great potential for smiles in your future Ken. Both given and received.
BTW Jim Pace, Bruce MacInnes and Nick Nicholson are all master racer/instructors who also fly their own planes.
After the racing stops... Rob Slonaker, Mark Hamilton Peters, Jason Holehouse, Keith Watts, Phil Lombardi and a gaggle of other instructors almost always fill the skies around race weekend tracks with the joyful noise and aerobatics of both gas and electric powered model planes.
So Ken, the table's set and we've been waiting for you. Grab your knife and fork and dig in.
I'm looking forward to meeting you and the rest of the guys, too. Sounds like some great camaraderie to be found here; it reminds me of my old RV crowd. I can't wait to dig in!
Welcome Ken,
The previously mentioned Instructor/Pilot Bruce MacInnes is on his second RV.
Used to have a RV4, now has a RV8. We have a series racer from the Seattle area, Tom Roberts, that has an RV as well and if I am not mistaken Eastern and Southern series driver Jim Norman has one.
You're in good company, have fun at the 3Day and see where it goes from there.
Cheers,
Rob
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"I miss 100% of the shots, I don't take." Wayne Gretsky. For Technique Talk archives click here
Bruce and Vicki, Bruce said this was their wedding pic
Nice looking -4. He's a big guy for one; I'm sure he's happier all around with the -8. I'll be looking forward to meeting him. I can talk about airplanes forever. And cars, motorcycles, guns, cameras, etc. :-)
Looks at helmets, and if you are going to run the series get a HANS.
Also, always remember to work up to to much entry Speed. (sorry nik-nik). Leave the set of large ones at home for the first few months, it is much cheaper that way.
Not much... Earplugs are a good idea as the cars are numbingly loud. A package of any good drugstore foam throw away earplugs will work... Just remember to put them in before you put your headsock on.
Enjoy Carls book and get relatively narrow racing shoes that maximize pedal feel and you should be fine. Driving Impressions has some inexpensive gloves that I'm partial to. Driving Impressions Link Delta 1 or 2's are perfectly fine. No padding in the palm but I've never had the blistering issue. I see Delta 3's are on sale with padding so if you can stand the color pattern go for it. Probably can't go wrong with Black unless they all have that white palm that's guaranteed to look like hell after two or three uses.
Once the hook is set you'll want your own helmet, drivers suit and seat insert. There are a few Skippy mechanics who make custom foam seat inserts for about a hundred dollar tip and its the best investment you'll ever make. Anchoring your seat in the car is very important as you progress. Not such a big deal at your 3 day but as you progress it makes a big difference that you can't appreciate until you experience it. The seat insert is, in my book, the most important thing to have after your shoes, gloves and helmet.
I see Ron has mentioned a HANS device and I'll amend my comments to say if you get your own helmet... Definitely get a HANS. Most of us use them now and it's all just smart safety and peace of mind.
Hope for decent weather but a little rain is even better as it gives you a more advanced car control challenge.
The only other thing that might help is a good nights sleep the night before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbalch
Trigger pulled. All signed up for Sebring 3/27-29. Had a nice chat with Kelly. I'll be looking forward to meeting her at some point.
Going Faster should arrive tomorrow.
Now to get some appropriate shoes & gloves...
What am I forgetting?
Ken
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
I'll definitely pick up the earplugs. I've started to research gear and sources from the links in my other thread. I've pretty much narrowed down a list of things to buy (including a Hans - model 30?) prior to my first race weekend. I'll contain myself for now, but will probably start ordering stuff before the 2-day advanced class.
The seat insert sounds great. I know how good a proper seat and harness setup helps from flying aerobatics. There's no substitute for being anchored to the machine.
Is there any reason to spring for the GP-5 over the -5K? I'm a great believer in Arai, so I'll definitely stick with them here.
Sleep? What's that? I'm going to be awake thinking about this for the next three weeks...
Ken
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalyduo
Not much... Earplugs are a good idea as the cars are numbingly loud. A package of any good drugstore foam throw away earplugs will work... Just remember to put them in before you put your headsock on.
Enjoy Carls book and get relatively narrow racing shoes that maximize pedal feel and you should be fine. Driving Impressions has some inexpensive gloves that I'm partial to. Driving Impressions Link Delta 1 or 2's are perfectly fine. No padding in the palm but I've never had the blistering issue. I see Delta 3's are on sale with padding so if you can stand the color pattern go for it. Probably can't go wrong with Black unless they all have that white palm that's guaranteed to look like hell after two or three uses.
Once the hook is set you'll want your own helmet, drivers suit and seat insert. There are a few Skippy mechanics who make custom foam seat inserts for about a hundred dollar tip and its the best investment you'll ever make. Anchoring your seat in the car is very important as you progress. Not such a big deal at your 3 day but as you progress it makes a big difference that you can't appreciate until you experience it. The seat insert is, in my book, the most important thing to have after your shoes, gloves and helmet.
I see Ron has mentioned a HANS device and I'll amend my comments to say if you get your own helmet... Definitely get a HANS. Most of us use them now and it's all just smart safety and peace of mind.
Hope for decent weather but a little rain is even better as it gives you a more advanced car control challenge.
The only other thing that might help is a good nights sleep the night before.
For more data, here is a suggested reading list - library
Although I must view racing from the sidelines I have every racing book, article,
forum and blog in my data banks and would say these are good selections.
I went for the GP-5 because I thought it might be the only helmet I ever wore so I wanted something that would look good on a shelf and was what F1 drivers wore at the time... In retrospect I'd have probably been happier with the 5K because the wider eye opening makes it possible to wear sun glasses if the weather changes suddenly and the field of vision is more sedan friendly if you go that way down the road. They're both great helmets. The 5K is probably the more practical choice and its cheaper.
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You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
all great advice... I personally could never do a lap at anything more than 5/10ths without a seat though. unless you're way thicker than I am, ( 5'10" and 195lbs) I'd think about the seat ahead of time. I think that makes alot more difference than what kind or even IF you wear gloves.
If you wanted to, you could call the Sebring shop and see if you can set up a time early your first day or the day before and have one poured. Or if the race series parts trailer is there, borrow a similair sized on. It's always done and people always take good care of them in the Skippy family.
besides that. I'd say just don't forget to relax and just soak it all in...
I'm actually considerably less thick at 6' & 160 lbs., so I'll plan to arrange for an insert.
I can't wait!
Ken
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcote
all great advice... I personally could never do a lap at anything more than 5/10ths without a seat though. unless you're way thicker than I am, ( 5'10" and 195lbs) I'd think about the seat ahead of time. I think that makes alot more difference than what kind or even IF you wear gloves.
If you wanted to, you could call the Sebring shop and see if you can set up a time early your first day or the day before and have one poured. Or if the race series parts trailer is there, borrow a similair sized on. It's always done and people always take good care of them in the Skippy family.
besides that. I'd say just don't forget to relax and just soak it all in...