Where have all the racers gone?

[Carl Lopez]

I've been a member of this group of racers for a long time, and when this site was started it was a terriffic venue for us road-racing fanatics, and members of the SBRS community, to share, vent, complain, make suggestions, and over-all share our collective enthusiasm for driving race cars. Perhaps this is stating the obvious, but the number of contributors to this site has sharply dwindled.

For those who are left logging in to see the latest input, and for those who continue to find this an active forum, I'd like to solicit your thoughts about why we are looking at dwindling contributions to the chat, and a downward trend in the entrants in SBRS racing events.

The die-hards are still here and we see new enthuiasts jumping in occasionally, but the volume of comments and suggestions has, seems to me, to have dropped off dramatically.

Thoughts? Insights? Am I mistaken?


Carl

[Jim Pace]

Carl,
Many see this as well. For the better part of a year or more this group of racers' interests have been expressed on this forum looking for places to race and sharing ideas about real Value. Concerns about excessive crash damage and rising costs are posted so many times one can feel the frustration. Continuing the same behavior and getting the same results versus trying something different? My feeling is there are as many TJR racers as ever and certainly plenty of the regulars racing just not as much SBRS. They are still racing and having fun building memories for a lifetime!

Alot like a graduating class going in different directions each successful but difficult to go back. The relationships formed last much longer than the racing...as it should be.

JP

[Stirling]

Carl,

It seams quite a few have moved upwards to other venues, and I am sure the current economy is taking its toll as well. Personally I moved to a different country, and while I would love to race a skippy car at the Shanghai F1 track, I feel the logistics would be hard to work out. :P

Looking at the top drivers, you know that SBRS is just a stepping stone. I was at the Malaysian F1 race and saw Gabby Chaves racing in FBMW. A lot of the drivers I first met through this site have moved on to to TRG and the rolex series.

With racing there is a natural tendency to want to progress, and people here have done that.

-Stirling

[dalyduo]

At the time TJR was created there was a strong healthy group of highly motivated racers including but certainly not limited to Sy, Michael Auriemma, Doug Harrison, Jim Craige, Martin Birkman, Donald MacDonald, Peter Ludwig, Matt Franc, Dick Lippert, Murray & Michele Marden, Lee Englebardt, Sid Brenner and many others who were racing full and partial seasons with Skippy.
There was real passion about learning to race and strong feelings of loyalty toward the company, instructors and its unique product. Those feelings were expressed regularly as corporate Skippy struggled with new ownership/management and quality control. The core instructors were the companies greatest and least appreciated asset during this period as they were also the gatekeepers of the training, feedback and camaraderie that makes their product special. The dwindling core that remains continues to make the magic happen.

While covertly monitoring TJR to take the temperature of their customer base, ownership missed a golden opportunity by not encouraging its interactive feedback function with the company. They discouraged instructors from participating and refused to embrace or acknowledge TJR in any way.

TJR was and continues to be a virtual club house for Skippy racers to keep in touch on all things racing. While its early orientation was primarily Skippy, as GPNY spreads its wings and many of us move on to other forms of racing TJR will embrace those as well.

Credit should be given to Sy who built this site with his passion for racing and continues to pay the server bill each month so we can all share our thoughts and keep in touch.

It's been said that the average cycle of a Skippy racer is about 3 years so perhaps we're experiencing the low point of one of those cycles on top of 4 dollar a gallon gas and a big reduction in discretionary spending.

Having said that... TJR has been the best and least expensive off track enhancement for Skippy customers since its creation. Nothing would please us more than to see a new crop of racers emerge from the Skippy ranks to grab the reigns of these threads and show us their curiosity and passion. I'd like to believe we're at the start of a new cycle so if you've been lurking around the site and would like to get in on the action... don't be shy.

For me TJR has enriched new friendships and the sharing of race experiences in a way that I never could have imagined.

All you need to do to share in that experience is start typing.

So in answer to your question Carl... Where have all the racers gone? They're just resting... And the new ones are cutting their teeth at GPNY before moving up to Skippy cars.

[jp56]

Hey, I check in frequently to see what people are thinking and whats going on..It's one of the better ways I know of to feel the pulse at SBRS. It does seem less busy than in the past, however

[dalyduo]

Happily you've been an exception to the discouragement policy all along John and there does seem to be some unofficial relaxation on participation now but I do lament the opportunity missed when this forum had the full attention and focus of your customer base. So it goes...

Originally Posted by jp56

Hey, I check in frequently to see what people are thinking and whats going on..It's one of the better ways I know of to feel the pulse at SBRS. It does seem less busy than in the past, however

[PFS]

Hey Carl,
I'm a late comer to the TJR party only have heard about it last fall. (I'm SO out of the loop). I have TJR set as my home page when I start IE, so I can see the latest stuff and get distracted from doing any real work that needs to be done.

So I don't always reply or add to threads, but I'm still reading the stuff everyday. (This gives me the illusion that I AM, in fact, in the loop.)

I suppose it's possible that this may be the case with other folks. (But, that's just from somebody who will, after all, NEVER be in the loop. And that's okay!)

Pete

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by PFS

Hey Carl,
I'm a late comer to the TJR party only have heard about it last fall. (I'm SO out of the loop).

Happens to lots of us living in the hinterlands Pete. I was 2 years late starting, but have certainly enjoyed the exchanges over the years.

Sy, DD, Doug and a few others have made an enormous contribution to SBR through TJR. They've recruited and retained more racers longer than anything SBR could have done, and had no formal recognition for the contribution - which is, as noted, part of the problem.

I think the major points have been covered. Tension with management policies that is sometimes overstated but real; growing through what Skippy offers; other opportunities/attractions; increasing cost, with crash damage limiting some participation, though thank god for the ceiling; downturn in the economy.

With all that, SBR still runs the best circuits, has the best instructors though in dwindling numbers, usually puts up fields of equal cars, and is the best value when beginning open wheel racing beyond carts.

[OLDMAN]

I know I'm in the vast minority but do you think that just possibly the racing and lapping and practice and damage just got to be too expensive?

OLDMAN

[ML Peter Ludwig]

This is my first post in a long time but I think the "core group" mentioned earlier really has moved on and there really has not been a new core group to take their place. A next genration must rise since many others have become the alumni. Many, many guys have moved on to what we all consider "higher levels" or next levels of motor racing. I for one have gone to Koni GS and Rolex GT competition attempting to push my competitive spirit forward all while draining my kids trust funds in the process. Anyone that thinks SBR is expensive needs to try one of these other events to get a grasp on reality again, SBR continues to be the most economical value around and offers the most opportunity to learn the fundamental skills needed to become a sound race car driver, I remain forever grateful for the SBR program and what it gave me.

I really do miss the core group that spent so much time together at SBR events around the country, we had a passion and deep routed bond, all thanks to SBR. The bond continues for many and I consider myself very fortunate to still see and spend time with many freinds, just at different race events now or off track gatherings.

My brother will be doing his first race weekend at VIR May 3-4, I too will be racing to give him support and honestly can't wait since it has been a long time. I hope to see many "old friends" during these days. He will also take part in the Lime Rock Invitational over Memorial Day weekend while I am racing in the Koni Series with TRG, I have decided to do the Invitational (along with SY!!!!) since he will be doing it, should be a blast and a reunion I hope.

I hope to see many of you at one or both events. Maybe my brother can be part of the "core group" coming down the trail....

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

I know I'm in the vast minority but do you think that just possibly the racing and lapping and practice and damage just got to be too expensive?

OLDMAN

Include me in that minority. Lapping, practice, computer car may arguably still be reasonable, but $3000 for 68 minutes (at best) of quali + racing?

I don't think "The best value in racing" is true any more. Most convenient, maybe. Best instruction, certainly. But as much as I love to drive those cars, the severe shortfall in seat time has got me on the sidelines this year.

[dalyduo]

For many it has become too expensive Bob. But as Peter points out, for others it is a great bargain compared to any form of pro and most forms of amateur racing.

That said... Things that have degraded the regional experience over the past couple of years:

Crash damage is more of a profit center now and prices of all services have risen sharply.

Discounts offered for all racing school activities at holiday time but no discounts offered for loyal long time customers of the race series at any time.

A fuel tank/pump and pickup issue that shortened the range of the cars making it seem the old CrackerJack box had a lot less CrackerJack in it. (I believe that has been fixed now)

A fully subscribed race weekend at Mont Tremblant with no customer party at the lake for the first time anyone could remember. (Thanks for your business... enjoy the luge!)

Cheap replacement suspension, brake and steering parts that became very expensive when they failed during various race weekends stopping those race weekends cold while proper replacements were found and installed on the entire fleet. (Bravo to the race mechanics... Boo to the bean counters.)

Mechanic under-staffing and poor anticipation of mechanic turnover hurt the quality of the product through no fault of the actual overworked mechanics on duty.

And despite these and other problems it is still one of the best deals in racing...

But where it used to be better by a lot... Now it is better by a lot less. Track choices have diminished and there are fewer instructors from the ranks of pro racing. Resources are spread so thin that low mechanic and instructor moral ultimately reduces the quality of the product they deliver.

And despite the problems there is no desire to kill it off... there is only desire to make it better.

The National Series was truly amazing last year with Randy Buck, Gerardo Bonilla and the most experienced instructors providing a first rate instructional series that really transformed the kids and masters who participated into first class racers. It was common for the National Skippy races to be reported as more exciting and cleanly hard fought than the pro races they were supporting.

There has been positive word of mouth on the MX-5 series from those who have run it. Despite not having full brake and suspension mods the cars are equal and seem to provide an entertaining experience so far.

The instructors still make chicken salad from chicken feathers each regional race weekend and amaze us with their skill, spirit and camaraderie.

Todd, Kelly and all the front line staff are the javelin catchers who push that race weekend logistical boulder up the mountain every time with grace only hearing from customers when something goes south.

From my perch on this soapbox there aren't near enough full season customers to create the on-track rivalries and off-track antics that used to give the regional series its life. Or maybe it's all still there and I'm just at the end of my racing cycle and don't know it yet. In either case I'm glad it soldiers on. I'm told the VIR weekend is fully booked with a waiting list so I hope some of those racers will take the time to share their experiences with us here.

So no Bob, I don't think it's just the cost of lapping, practice and racing.

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

I know I'm in the vast minority but do you think that just possibly the racing and lapping and practice and damage just got to be too expensive?

OLDMAN

[LimeRockRacer]

I agree with what everyone said above and add some emphasis on some of the points.

In all due respect to some of Pete's comments, while I agree SBRS is still much more economical than moving on to the next higher drug, the vast majority of our racers are stretching to enter the series. As the value goes down in the eyes of the customer, the customer will take its hard earned dollars onto other interests. SBRS should be proud to see its graduates that have higher aspirations and bigger wallets move on. It speaks to the quality of the series and school. With that said we need to keep our core racers involved.

After doing a number of full seasons I can add that the lack of returning regular full season participants last year made for a less enjoyable season. Rewarding the regulars who support the series time and time again will aid in getting the camaraderie quotient back into the series. For me that is a big part of the value.

Lastly, the customer needs to feel respected and treated like they have value to the series beyond how much they bring in their wallet. Some of the pricing and policy changes over the last couple of years have certainly had its impact on many of the new and regular customers.

My 2 cents....

[cdh]

I shall return and kick this hive, get it buzzing again. I get dscouraged often with lack of participation, tried many things to get new/more posters but none have worked well, I don't get it. Will refire p-shop when home and razz you all.

In Med between Nice and Barcelona on MS Seabourn Pride, nice home away from home...well actually a lot nicer than home .

Walked much of Monaco street circuit yesterday, will take train to Catalunya from Barcelona manana for AM pit walk, see the FI machines (no testing/practice till Friday). Just coincidence with port of call and the Spanish GP, too bad it wasn't a couple days later.....

see ya all in a week or 3, or never, been really nice seeing this part of world again.

ciao racers - don't let this be a hijack, comments on travel on teamjuicytravel.not - to the point of LRR above about taking care of loyal customers, SB could learn from Seabourn, of 180 guests on board, 83% are returning passengers because of the treatment, perks, discounts they receive and the flawless service and fun times.

cdh

[jp56]

Originally Posted by cdh

83% are returning passengers because of the treatment, perks, discounts they receive and the flawless service and fun times.

cdh

Common sense, one would think.
Have fun web miester

[AlDelattre]

I would have quoted Pat Daly in Post 12, but it was too long, and too good to attempt a truncation.

I think he - and Doug's Seabourn comparo - kind of get at 90% of the current "shortfall of interest". Remember, I'm still a "west" guy and one of the few that ever penetrated the halls of the east series, it seems....odd, that is.

I know I "was" a West regular - this past year it was schedules mostly, though I guess if the incentive (i.e. "value vs pain") was stronger I could have shown up more. I know that there is a still a (small) cadre - some old (Gray Gregory, Sarena Traver), and some more recent guys (eg Gary Mannheimer) that have kept the flame alive.

Interestingly, even though I'm ballast-rich and talent-low, I'm relatively competitive, but even I have found Race-a-Wreck in an SCCA Miata Enduro to be a draw....

Raced the MX5's at Laguna - still the same experience with the crew (Randy and the instructors). It's still there, albeit pricier and perhaps somewhat higher hassle (refer to Post 12 above).

Re TJR frequency - unfortunately, most of my online time is when I"m camped in places (clients, China) where the firewalls don't like Team JUICY....so I can't access.....

Regardless, I will attest that being on TJR and catching the enthusiasm got me into this racing mess, and I'm a much poorer (financially) and richer (experience) guy for it.

BTW - agree re GPNY. I raced there with Aaron Hollander last week, and we had a good chat. I think he's recognizing what needs to be done.

Semper Fidelis

[OLDMAN]

Pat:
Every time I express an opinion on this site you seem to take me on as if it's personal. All I'm saying is that from my my point of view the one item that keeps me away is the cost. Meaning that if everything else was perfect, the cost would still be too high for me right now.

If I were to win Powerball I would then be concerned with critical parts failing on the car, something I never saw years ago, but saw numerous times at LRP in 2006.

Just because it's the best value in car racing does not make it affordable for everyone. I'm not going to the IRL or NASCAR. I'm just a middle class guy trying to live a little bit of a dream. I was watching races at LRP, Bridgehampton and The Glen long before 90% of the current Skippy staff was even born. All I'm trying to do is have a little fun at this stage of my life. I have to weigh two hours in the car at Mont Tremblant against an outlay of $5,000 of after tax money I need for lodging and the racing. It is a lot more if one bends the car!

I've done at least one race weekend per year over the last 11 years. One year I did 3 weekends, many years I did 2. But my pay is not keeping up. Not even close. To add to the tough decision to abstain is the level of the competition. It used to be that many racers would show up, do a practice day and the race weekend. Now, many competitors show-up on Monday or Tuesday and go at it all week long. Just like in life, the middle class is disappearing.

Bob

[dalyduo]

Your points are all well taken and as valid as any I was making Bob. My response wasn't meant to be personal... (Though I guess I did quote and mention you by name. ) Your poser gave me the chance to share some of my current feelings about the company. Thanks! Pat

[GEORGE]

When this thread started I was going to reply instantly. Just as I was about to hit Submit, I cancelled it. I had to think about it some.
I love this site and I try to contribute as much as possible. The people who contribute are passionate and eloquent about this sport. Sometime I feel that my contribution to it sounds elementary.
The Skippy series has TWO distinct driving classes.
1) Those driver who are in class to move up and out into the pro ranks. God bless em. They have talent and nerve. Many have very deep pockets so a race weekend and crash damage, are just a fact of life.
2) Then there are guys and girls like me. We are in this for very personal reasons. We are NOT going to be professional race drivers. We have other lives. The fire burns in us to race safely and as quickly as our inner thrill meter lets us. I know I want to go as fast as the car is capable, but sometimes my self preservation mode takes over. But people like me are still interested in participating in the series and talking about it with other racing minded people.
This site is a great reference for those of us who are enthusiasts of grass roots road racing and want to learn a craft, go fast, make friends, and feel we have accomplished something.
I promise to contribute more in the future to this site. Maybe.

I am worried about the safety of this series if they are cutting corners on brake and suspension parts. This is really scarey and should not be tolerated by ANY participant. If Skip Barber is putting Amateurs in unsafe equiptment, then we need to address this BIG time!!!!

[jeffrey Pietz]

It has been my experience that list serves tend to be a bit on the gloomy and doomy side and this one is no exception. I hear many worrisome things said by fellow racers on and off this site about SBR and I try to ignore most of it.

What I discovered after running a few races is how much I enjoyed the people. The other racers the instructors and the other SBR staff made going to the races much more fun than I had guessed it would be.

I especially appreciate the instructors not just for their knowlege and skill but because they make racing even more fun than it already is.

I did not plan to like the folks at the track as much as I do but I found them to be one of the most fun and interesting groups I have ever hung with.

Now I see many leaving to do other things and I hear many excellent explanations as to why. Perhaps this is just part of the natural cycle. Of course people will come and go but if all the rumors I have been hearing are true more seem to be going..

I am truly sorry if this is so. SBR has been great fun. But if the RT/2000s are getting too long in the tooth, maintainence is slipping and seat time gets even more out of line I will find other ways to race. Even though I will be thankful for all I learned there I will be elsewhere.

So far I am not convinced that SBR has slipped so far that I want to give it up but I will be watching and listening for any signs that things are slipping.

[GriffDogRacer]

Coming from a Newbie...

As for SBRS - I have no real reference since my three day school and one marathon week at Sebring is all the racing I've ever done (aside from a few rather wild laps in a stocker at AMS - now THATS low budget fun... if you can get past the fenders ). However, I can share that having a chance to actually participate in a life long passion has changed me as a person... really. It's not an "at all costs" thing, but I am willing to stretch a bit to continue to prove some things to myself on the other side of the fence. At this point, despite some frailties noted above, I plan to wring out a race or three a year with SB - and I truely hope that there are more of the "Class 2" drivers (as George puts it) that join the chase. I need more competition that feels the consequence of overzealous optimism. And as for delusions of moving on to bigger and better one day... I dare to dream!

As for the TJR Site - I really appreciate those of you who put this together and continue to contribute. I log on or lurk a couple of times a week... it's how I keep the dream alive while my bank account recovers. I like hearing the perspectives of you all that have been at it a while. I read what's rattling around in my head and I realize I'm not crazy (well, at least I'm not the only one).

gdr

[ORBlues]

Coming into this late, I would suggest that the best thing about the series when I ran it, was the camaraderie of running with people - through an entire season. I am not a part of it now, but it seems like the price has made it a few races per year proposition. As fun and enjoyable as it might be, it does not compare to running with others for a entire championship. That is special.

ChrisZ

[john stickler]

Hi Carl
just got introduced to this site by Paul Marchese, so i'm a bit of a late comer. I can only speak of myself in regard to your question, but i really think the series is all about the people, whether it be the Skippy staff or the racers. i raced from '93 up to 2000 with skippy and couldn't have had a better time, a great racing education and a
tremendous core of characters to hang with afterwards and share war stories from the day. To me the flavour changed somewhat when Skippy aligned with CART and the influx of talent from overseas
changed the "Boy'sClub" mentality somewhat. You can't knock good competition, but part timers like myself know how much seat time means in terms of lap times, so the bar was definitely raised when these guys with budgets arrived on the scene and were seemingly in the car at every oppurtunity. But the over riding factor for me was the people and by the late 90's a lot of people had drifted away for
whatever reason, and i did the same. But the Skippy comradery is still alive and well,whether its an PCA, SVRA or HSR meet, somehow we find each other and rehash the old day's, but i think its natural that people move on whether its budget, time or some other reason.
hope all is well with you
regards
John Stickler

[PFS]

Location: Nyack. That's funny. Welcome! And maybe this site will get the juices flowing and force you to put aside priorities previously perceived as important and come back and race with us!
Peter

[john stickler]

Hey Peter, maybe we know each other without knowing it, i have still been racing a porsche in other series since 2000, and the juices are still flowing believe me, the budget is not quite so fluid these days though. But as i said, a lot of the enjoyment was the people i was racing with, and although i'm sure there's a fine group involved now, to me its not the same and i've moved on.
maybe see you around town
cheers
John

[PFS]

Good to hear you still get in a car. Don't know if you get "out west" to Road America much, but I'll look for you at the Memorial Day Porsche Club weekend.
Peter

[PT Cruiser]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

It's been said that the average cycle of a Skippy racer is about 3 years so perhaps we're experiencing the low point of one of those cycles . . . . Nothing would please us more than to see a new crop of racers emerge from the Skippy ranks to grab the reigns of these threads and show us their curiosity and passion. I'd like to believe we're at the start of a new cycle so if you've been lurking around the site and would like to get in on the action... don't be shy.

I've been around Skippy long enough to see at least two big waves of racers come and go. That this cycle would continue is not surprising. What seems different now is that fewer of the new drivers coming into the series seem to stick around for any length of time. There are plenty of theories why this is the case -- A weak economy; The general increase in cost of racing in general, and of crash damage in particular; a group format (now defunct) that let new drivers collect trophies early in their careers, but then required an ego-busting step up to the next level; more low-cost alternatives to SBRS than in the past-- but I don't think anyone really knows for sure what has changed in the last few years. All I can say is that I hope it changes back --the driver count at some regional weekends, not to mention the number of posts on TJR, are definitely on the low side these days.

It would definitely stink if a year or two from now, I finally managed to win a championship in a Skip Barber Series . . . . by virtue of the fact that I was the only driver who showed up.

[John Greist]

I've been reflecting on the attrition issue and agree with Peter's observations.

Almost everyone eventually moves on, though a few of us stayed a decade or longer and some return for "memory runs" from time to time and some are fierce when they do - Louis Dibrell showed everyone the short way around VIR 3 or 4 years ago and Paul Arnold was immediately right there last summer at Mt. Tremblant. There comes a time when it's over for a variety of appropriate reasons - Doc and Will Pace, Dan Flanigan, Charlie Hilmer, Dave DeVanny....and many others - pardon my spelling errors.

But as Peter notes, fewer run full seasons now and fewer run repeat seasons. The recent economy reduces participation for sure as have previous downturns, but price rises in the race series seem disproportionately large which aggravate any broad economic factors.

SBR remains, as Peter Ludwig noted, a good value compared with some series, but SBR is expensive compared with others. As all acknowledge, SBR's greatest assets are coaching staff, venues, equal cars and commoraderie. Reduced seat time, lack of substantial monetary reinforcement of repeat customers and occasional operational gaffs work against these high intrinsic values.

SBR has been a wonderful opportunity for the open wheel racing community and I hope it will find the right path to continue to provide one fix for our racing addiction.

[TomBobN20]

I've been watching this thread with interest and thought I'd throw in my 2 bits for what it's worth. I have to agree across the board with John Greist that there are a lot of reasons for the decrease in numbers during Skippy weekends. I know a lot of the West Coast guys have "moved up" to bigger and better rides and been amazingly successful. But I also know a lot of people who have left in disgust at the way they were treated by the people at the top of the company. I think one of the fundamantal problems with Skip Barber is that is being run by people who don't have a passion for racing and have focused on profits over customer satisfaction. Obviously a company has to be profitable but if you place that as the highest priority, you end up shooting yourself in the foot. When I first started racing with Skippy there was an amazing camaraderie amongst the racers. While a lot of them had the means to drive at a higher (ie pricier) level, they stayed with Skippy because it was plain and simply a ball to race with your friends year after year. But as the company became less and less responsive to its customers people had enough and moved on. As numbers went down, the cost of running the business had to be absorbed by fewer people, so the price went up. A bit of a death spiral. A perfect example of this is the lead/follow sessions. Used to be it was a small fee to pay for the instructors car and a nice fat tip to the instructor. Everyone made out, including the company as it meant drivers became better, had more fun, crashed less and therefore stuck around to purchase more seat time. But the corporates couldn't leave it alone. The price got jacked up, the instructor didn't get a bit of extra spending money and everyone loses. The corporates just don't get it and from what I'm seeing they are slowly strangling this company. The RT/2000 appears to be dying a pathetic death with nothing but an MX5 to replace it. And the camaraderie is a ghost of its former self. Can this be turned around? Hard to imagine with the current leaders. So many people have tried so many ways to let them know that their egos are destroying an institution. But hell hasn't frozen over yet so who knows. I have to give Sy and the others involved with the creation and perpetuation of this website a huge thanks for staying with it when most would have shut it down. It still is a great place to come to daily and touch base with friends I have made across the US.

[John Greist]

Well said Tom.

I keep emphasizing the good things at SBR that have persisted despite misguided policy changes - your example of lead-follow being one very good example. I'd plateaued about 5 years ago, and nearly "retired." But doing lead-follow with JP, especially after he added radios that he, not SBR, provided, the learning curve steepened again. Even after the price gouging began, it was still worth it, though not as good value and irritating to watch the way management made that change.

Characterologically, I try to see the good side of things, to the point my colleague of 43 years says he's only seen me really angry 3 times - Revere has seen that a few more times - and I've not had the kinds of run-ins with management you and others have experienced.

Throughout the history I've observed - only the last 17 years - SBR has made mistakes, including in my mind the RT-2000 itself - though that occurred on Skip's watch - and we'll never know what would have happened if they'd stuck with the Formula Dodges which are much better cars for racing further up the learning curve and more fun too. It's also cheaper to build, and fewer parts to damage, though if you're making money replacing parts, fewer wings to damage is a bad thing. But when mistakes were made, what made SBR work so well for customers in its salad days was a customer service orientation by racers at the top, right up to Skip. I know there were tough times for SBR as the economy cycled then as now, but the feeling was different.

Again, Sy deserves accolades for starting and keeping the web site going, and DD and Doug too. At the least, TJR is cathartic for us and it has helped management, the switch back to the old one group format resulting from Matt's thread on the topic being one obvious example.

Hope this weekend at VIR is a grand success and that there will be many smiling faces.

[TomBobN20]

John, I watched you go through that transition. The first time I went to RA I could almost keep up with you. The next time it was nothing but a taillight fading off into the distance. I figured if you could pick up that kind of speed so could I, wasn't just an age thing, not that either of us are old or anything. So I started doing L/F also and, as they say, the rest is history. Perhaps more a testimate to the instructors skill and less ours but we don't have to dwell on that point do we.

I agree, it is best to try to stay positive as much as possible but it felt like a good time to call a spade a spade rather than dance around it. I would love to see this thing turn around because I do miss the action and especially the people but at the present moment what hooked me about Skippy doesn't exist any more. Everything is there for it to happen. The car is really not as important as having something consistant and reliable. With the right people running it I am sure it could return and hopefully will.

[John Greist]

Not only competitors move on. Wally and Duck and Carl and Divina and Larry Grabb and ... Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Looks like a large meeting at VIR with many new drivers and a lovely spread of times with the return to the old group format. Looking forward to reactions of those who were there.

[chsutherland]

SBRS owes a huge THANK YOU to SY, DD, and CDH. That much is certain. More than any other single issue, the lack of support for TJR is what amazes me. TJR was a huge contributing factor in my participation with SBRS. The best marketing tool SBRS has and they won't even put a link on their site. Speaks volumes of whomever is calling the shots.

[LimeRockRacer]

Tom, John and everyone else who has chimed in make a lot of good points. Do you think any one has the ear of those at the top to get some directional changes that will bring back that special something that seems to come and go so fleetingly?

I sure do hope they can pull it all together sometime soon. It would be a damn shame to see the series become a school with a race series of strangers in it. The friendships we make seem to be the most important and rewarding feature that the series have given many of us, when one friend goes to race somewhere else, he/ she brings a whole pile of friends with them...

[PSMAIA]

i have been following this discussion for awhile and can no longer resist putting in my (probably worthless) two cents...

i started racing in the series in 1979, when it really was skip's personal dream...the whole setup was so new and loose that i even traded design services for skip's offices in return for track time...in those days we never knew if the series would survive into the next year, and we all had a keen sense of what too much crash damage could do to the future of the endeavor...

as the series slowly became serious, and others started copying the concept, the sense of almost brotherhood among us racers was palpable...the almost 27 years i spent with sbr was one of the greatest experiences of my life...

however, then skip sold the series things started to go wrong...from that point on, the 'racing club' atmosphere began to change...from dealing with skip, bruce and carl, suddenly we were dealing with a company with a real live bureaucracy...and for whatever reason, the new owners could not leave the series alone...

slowly but very perceptively, my old friends drifted away...some went to club racing, some simply stopped...one day i realized that this wasn't much fun anymore and i found that i had drifted into gt racing...i tried coming back several times, but the magic was gone...

the good news is that all the friendships i made are still good and the new lime rock club has brought several of us back together...the bad news is that a whole new generation of skippy racers are sadly missing out on what was a truly great era...

[John Greist]

Great to have your longer perspective. Very helpful. Challenges then and now, but they seemed communal then with everyone pulling together. Different now and we wish is could again be more as it was then.

[sjames2222]

I was just reflecting on my start in the series (see separate post) and decided to post here as well. I certainly can appreciate the longing for nostalgia and I certainly miss seeing some of the people I met only a year ago at some of the races. The great thing (one of the many) about Skippy is that there are almost always new and interesting people to meet. Making new friends is as much fun as see the old friends and the racing. I switched to the MX-5 group this year and have already met some great people. Sure I'd like for the prices to be less and the track time to be more but there are some things that you can't put a price on.
I recently attended an SCCA club race in a rented car that was not equal to the other "spec" Miatas in the field and felt that there was too much of a segregation amongst the teams. And what..."why isn't there an SCCA patch on your suit"! (just a personal experience).

I returned to VIR this year with great memories of my first race ever. I had a great time last year in the R/T car and an equally great time this year. The setting, the weather, the people and getting to enjoy my best finish, second place, with my family makes this past weekend priceless for me.
Skippy to me means a great value for the money, excellent instruction, terrific tracks and the opportunity to renew old and begin new friendships. It's all what you make of it. My 2 cents!

[LimeRockRacer]

Congratulations Scott! What an awesome way to start your season. I wish I could have been there to see you podium.

Your sentiments are well taken and the people are what make the experience.

I think what most concerned loyalists are saying is that they want the series to survive long term and prosper. With the state of the financial equation that both the owners and drivers feel from somewhat different perspectives along with some other symptomatic issues the trend has not been positive. We have lost a great deal of loyal customers in the last few years and the number of returning full season drivers is at a low point.

The experience that SBRS provides is still unmatched from the people perspective and we have a great deal of fun in and around the track. The fact remains that the current state of affairs is causing disruption and we are mindful and hopeful for a positive re-direction.

Congrats once again and I hope we see you soon!

[Carl Lopez]

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It really started on a whim. I am especialy encouraged by the fact that both beginning racers, and veterans, have expressed their thoughts.

As the resident SBRS dinosaur, I often wondered whether my impressions of what was happening to the company was a function of nostalgia, or an accurate sense of change that was detrimental to the ethic of the enterprise. Whatever your opinion of Skip himself, you could always count on his decisions to be based on a racer's ethic developed over a 50 year career, often at the bottom of the financial heap. We made a lot of mistakes along the way as the company grew, but they often were innocent mistakes. We tried to make it easier for drivers to understand and enter the sport. We worked on the cirriculum to make it more functional and accurate, and we spent a lot of effot to make the racing more fair and more rewarding for every participant. And at the same time we tried to keep it reasonably inexpensive.

Having been officially out-of-the-loop for nearly a year, I haven't looked closely at the overall operation in the same way I used to, but casually looking at a 2008 schedule I was alarmed at the reduction in race-car-oriented programs. That kind of led me to pose the question that started this thread...and there was no better place to express that concern than here....Thanks to Sy and others.

I've been a part of SBRS for over 30 years and it would be sad for the sport to lose the extraordinary access, challenges, thrills, satisfaction and comraderie that the race-series provides.
All of you who have responded to my initial post show that racers are still out there and in one way or another, the best parts of the sport will continue.

Thanks for the responses.