Gear Talk: Anyone had any experience with the defNder Neck Protection device? (First post here) - Team Juicy Racing's Racing School and Race Series Forums

cooleyjb · #1 12-31-2008

The one that comes to mind is the Australian Supercar (or other down under series) driver early this year that went into the wall and died. I do believe he was wearing a HANS. Death was from a brain bleed I believe. I'll see if I can find the reports on that one.

I'll also check and see if there are any others.

The one thing to note is that the HANS does decrease the neck load in the 30 degree hit. I believe that non restrained tension is 5500 or so and the HANS is at 2000.

John Greist · #2 12-31-2008

Those are the kinds of reports that can shape opinion. Thanks for noting it. As further information on that death is available, I'd like to review it.

cooleyjb · #3 01-01-2009

Ashley Cooper is the person I was thinking of.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor...46030707_x.htm

Shockingly USA today had a decent article with quotes from series offficials. No direct mention of a HANS device but I'm pretty sure he was wearing one as it is a top level FIA series.

Video here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULeLh98NOdQ

Left hand drive car.

John Greist · #4 01-01-2009

A competitor was shown wearing a HANS and this review (http://aussieexotics.com/2008/02/27/...edia-statement) stated nothing was found wrong with Ashley Cooper's HANS.

A side hit, hard but not seemingly harder than many others. Did his belt slip off the yoke? Is this an indication of lesser side impact protection you've mentioned? Other equipment (helmet, seat, belts) failure? None acknowledged in reports and they changed the corner the next year. Would like to see official report, but haven't found one.

cooleyjb · #5 01-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Greist

A competitor was shown wearing a HANS and this review (http://aussieexotics.com/2008/02/27/...edia-statement) stated nothing was found wrong with Ashley Cooper's HANS.

A side hit, hard but not seemingly harder than many others. Did his belt slip off the yoke? Is this an indication of lesser side impact protection you've mentioned? Other equipment (helmet, seat, belts) failure? None acknowledged in reports and they changed the corner the next year. Would like to see official report, but haven't found one.

I sent an email to a buddy who is very up to date wtih these things to see if there was an official report that was released.

Here is a video of a HANS coming out from belts in a sled test

http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Video/SFIBoth.mpg

The device on the right side is teh Isaac.

dalyduo · #6 01-11-2009

Hhhmmm. Isaac does a comparison sled test with a HANS device and the belts slip off... What a surprise! If I went out with my belts as loose as those on that dummy... I'd be the dummy.

While the focus and purpose of the video is to show a shoulder strap slipping off a HANS device, there are a couple of other things shown that probably don't get much notice or consideration. If you look at the range of head motion forward and to the side in the sled tests there is almost no difference between the two devices in side motion even with the HANS being held in place by one shoulder strap. And with one strap there is still less forward and down head motion with the HANS when compared with the Isaac. Because the helmet tethers on the HANS will stabilize the helmet even if only one strap is holding the yoke in place you still have most of the intended protection with one strap. Hadn't considered that before and wouldn't want to test it but glad to see it illustrated in the sled test.

Easy to see why HANS lawyers may be studying the Defender design. Though the Defender is a composite of different pieces bolted together the overall design looks a lot like the HANS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooleyjb

I sent an email to a buddy who is very up to date wtih these things to see if there was an official report that was released.

Here is a video of a HANS coming out from belts in a sled test

http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Video/SFIBoth.mpg

The device on the right side is teh Isaac.

cooleyjb · #7 01-11-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalyduo

Hhhmmm. Isaac does a comparison sled test with a HANS device and the belts slip off... What a surprise! If I went out with my belts as loose as those on that dummy... I'd be the dummy.

While the focus and purpose of the video is to show a shoulder strap slipping off a HANS device, there are a couple of other things shown that probably don't get much notice or consideration. If you look at the range of head motion forward and to the side in the sled tests there is almost no difference between the two devices in side motion even with the HANS being held in place by one shoulder strap. And with one strap there is still less forward and down head motion with the HANS when compared with the Isaac. Because the helmet tethers on the HANS will stabilize the helmet even if only one strap is holding the yoke in place you still have most of the intended protection with one strap. Hadn't considered that before and wouldn't want to test it but glad to see it illustrated in the sled test.

Easy to see why HANS lawyers may be studying the Defender design. Though the Defender is a composite of different pieces bolted together the overall design looks a lot like the HANS.

I am pretty sure those belts were both at the same level of tightness. For those tests they usually hand the device to the testers and the facility is the one that does the 'attaching' of the device to the crash test dummy. The dummies cost roughly 50K last I heard, and they don't want to risk breaking one.

As for it looking like it holds the head in place, that is a subjective result and not really a helpful one. I think the one that would be more useful is what the actual numbers were. I don't think I've ever seen the numbers for when the HANS has come out from under one of the belts.

Many incidents however are more than one hit. What is the scary thing is if you lose the HANS/belt interface in the first hit and then have another.

I'm not an Isaac 'fan' and not a HANS basher as I currently race with a HANS. However HANS does have some areas where improvements could be made IMO and it appears that others have worked on those areas.

PFS · #8 01-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooleyjb

The one thing to note is that the HANS does decrease the neck load in the 30 degree hit. I believe that non restrained tension is 5500 or so and the HANS is at 2000.

Very interesting discussion. I also wonder if there is a difference in side load force reduction between the HANS with the fixed tethers and the ones with the sliding tethers. Seems to me the angle of the head (where the face is pointed) just after the impact at the 30 degree angle with the sliders would be different than it would be with the fixed, but maybe not.

cooleyjb · #9 01-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFS

Very interesting discussion. I also wonder if there is a difference in side load force reduction between the HANS with the fixed tethers and the ones with the sliding tethers. Seems to me the angle of the head (where the face is pointed) just after the impact at the 30 degree angle with the sliders would be different than it would be with the fixed, but maybe not.

I've been in a number of discussions about that and haven't heard of any sled test numbers existing in the public domain.

wbs · #10 01-03-2009

A glance at the design on the website reveals (to me) no radical departure from the HANS design.

The major difference is a sizable side lip. I have a newer HANS device with a lip, but it still doesn't inspire much confidence and I wish HANS made a bigger lip, at least at the top end as the defnder seems to.

A bigger lip would probably go a long way toward quieting me down in the pit grid -- I tend to ask more than once whether my shoulder straps are fully within the yoke side lips.