Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

[dalyduo]

While Vin's frustration at not breaking the draft is understood, Jim does make a compelling argument that not being able to break the draft forces drivers to think strategically, learn the race craft of running in a pack, have a lot more FUN and possibly differentiate the smartest drivers from the fastest drivers.
All in all a lot more fun for spectators and instructors watching too!

Originally Posted by Jim Pace

The most fun the RT has been is with treaded tires and the Todd Snyder/Hansford style rear wing. This provided a little more downforce to put power down and extra drag at topend making the draft nearly unbreakable. Now the top ten stay together and the smartest drivers work their way through the pack. Close racing, more competitive, less panic because no one is running away.

Thanks for reading. JP

[OLDMAN]

If it's drafting you want, I'm ok with little parachutes on the back. Sometimes I think there is an invisable one attached as it is.

OLDMAN

P.S. I can't wait for the 4-speed box vs the 5-speed sequential thread.

[Carl Lopez]

I'll bet you all thought I was done. I wanted to get some more comments about wings, under the wire.

Should the cars look swoopy? Absolutely! They should look like F-1 cars! Buy as many $2.00 fiberglass winglets, bargeboards and phony camera pods as possible and incorporate them into some imaginative bodywork on every car from Intro's through the National. Color them like current F-1 teams. We did that in the early 80's and it was a cool fantasy trip. You were driving the BRG Lotus with gold wheels. You had to race the blue and white "Gitanes" Matra, complete with the lady with the parasol logo. Car number 48 was the Blue and white Gurney Eagle. We even had the Black and Gold JPS Lotus. But, remake the car out of carbon fibre? Why?

Have customers in $600 intro programs go home with photos that look like they spent a day driving a F-1 or Indy Car, complete with logos. Underneath, it could be a relatively inexpensive tube frame car with reasonably priced components.

Lets face it....whether its Racing Schools or Racing Series, its all about folks chasing an image and an experience. Create the image, and provide an enjoyable experience and you can't fail but satisfy.
That's not to say that we shouldn't aim high in terms of developing racing knowledge and skills...its just that the tool...(the car)...does not have to be terrifically sophisticated or expensive to teach the most important lessons. Yes, the 1/2 of 1 percent of people who come through the door will eventually have to deal with issues like aerodynamically induced understeer...but they don't have to learn that lesson from us. There are so many other basic skills and knowledge they need to absorb that "downforce" is so far down the list that I'm surprised (amazed) that it comes up as the first topic on this forum.

After all this perspective, what do I think about wings? I prefer having them on the cars at every level, in order for all the cars to look as modern and swoopy as possible.

Consider the advantages of having every car in the fleet be built, prepared, and maintained exactly the same. One car with one setup leaves open all sorts of logistical advantages. Anytime one car in the inventory differs from others, raises the number of cars the company needs to own in order to service the wide variety of programs we offer. This forum focuses on Race Series related issues, but the same cars are needed to service Advanced Schools, Corporate Programs, Car Control Clinics and, if the one-car concept is taken to its logical conclusion, all racing school activity.

Oh yea, this was about wings. I think the wings should provide no appreciable downforce, front or rear. Let the 30 customers a year that want to experience downforce go to BMW or Mazda...and spend the money that it takes to increse the cornering force and reduce the braking zones against others that have the same advantages.

Coming from our system, they will get there with race savy and experience that will serve them better than the appreciation of how much additional grip they can have in the braking zone and in high speed corners.

One of the prime goals I would attach to wings is to make them cheap. Now, on the RT 2000s, we have a very fancy aluminum wing with a Gurney flap that is expensive and pretty ineffective, except for the marketing value. Why not make a plastic extrusion that costs .20 cents per 24" section, and a bigger single element rear wing made of the same cheap stuff? Cover them with .50 cents worth of 3M Carbon fibre tape and you have a great place for decals and $10 worth of wings that you can bill at a 700% markup. And they look exactly like a $15,000 Penske unit!

Also: the front plastic, non functional, wings could disguise a substantial sub-frame that would help prevent the front tires from riding up over the rear tire of a competitor...helping to eliminate rollovers. These kinds of crashes frequently write of entire chassis as well as 3 or more corners ...the most expensive and money-losing kinds of crashes...not to mention the most risky for the well-being of the driver.

I'm done.

Thanks to Sy and Gerardo for the forum.

Can't wait for the next topic!

Carl

[999]

Bravo, Carl.

[Susan Addison]

Originally Posted by Pat Daly

"With the relative low horsepower run in every current series it would seem the performance cost of running a high downforce setup might be higher than the aero benefit.

I've never heard anyone say the R/T2000 wings do more than provide a minor bit of downforce and a major source of eye candy for the brochure."

Agreed Pat,

I would really like to see some real wings, like the ones on the Formula SCCA, not the eye candy ones currently run. The rest I agree with Dick L. Surprise Dick!

[rtsteve]

I'm all for the bigger wings on the cars from lapping days up. gotta have em on the for lappings so we can at least get a good idea what the car handles like before we try a race. more grip for me means less worrying about $$$$$$$$$$$.

[PT Cruiser]

In my mind, wings have a LOT of negatives. Many of these have already been mentioned. But here are a few more:

1. Wings that provide real downforce can break at very inopportune times. I'm sure Katherine Legge would second me on this. As an amateur racer, the extra cornering speed made possible by wings just increases my risk level, without raising the fun factor one iota.
2. Wings and aero devices have ruined the racing at the higher levels. You get close to the guy in front of you, you lose all of your downforce. So qualfying is everything, and the races turn into a dull procession. I have no desire to see Skippy cars afflicted with this malady.

And yes, my crash damage bills have gone up significantly since the addition of the wings, with no return benefit in the fun factor.

So I am with Papa Lopez. . . . . . except for his suggestion about a 700% markup. Put a nerf bar on the front of the cars to reduce the number of flips, and then camaflouge it so it looks sexy. Put the cheapest possible cosmetic wing on the rear of the car, so that giving the tire wall a gentle tap at the end of an otherwise harmless spin doesn't double your bill for the weekend . Let anyone who wants to fool around with REAL aero empty their bank accounts at Star Mazda or Formula BMW.

[Carl Lopez]

Been a whil since I went through this but great points on all the issues. Thanks for the effort, although I'm not surprised you took the time..

[Carl Lopez]

PT Cruiser:
I'm glad to hear that there is someone else out there that actively agrees with me! I thought, for a while, that I was the only person here with a counter point of view.
Here are a couple of, holes in the argument for functional wings.
Some of the on-line input states that additional cornering grip increases the safety margin because the cars corner better with more grip. True. They do! T he problem is that when neophytes make mistakes, they fly off the road at higher speeds than they might if they were driving cars whose cornering limits were lower.
It seems more logical to train driviers with lower-grip cars than, more risky, higher grip cars. No wings and negligible downforce make sense for entry level racing.

[999]

Bobo

As the sponsor of this thread, I think it would be great if you summarized the input and reached a 'conclusion'. I understand that nothing is really concluded... but rather, this is the collective opinion of the group on this topic. You could weight various opinions based on their frequency and source (e.g. you might give Carl more credence than someone that just finished their first school) when forming the basis for your summary.

It would be a great way to 'close the thread' on October 1st.

[Carl Lopez]

I dabble in this site at some risk for alienating my employer, but there is something disturbing when I go on a rant in a post and half of my laborious typing just disappears before I even hit Post. I'd like to contiue to participate, but you've got to explain to me how I can answer a post without being mysteriously cut off half way through. Addmittedly Ignorant, Carl , You may think this site is perfectly intuitive, but there's at least one who is way-behind current savy.

Sorry. I think you guys would not want to leave me too far behind.
You can at least dependt upon me not being PC.

[OLDMAN]

In the end the car will have wings. They won't be there for downforce or for drafting but rather for the bottom line. I'd love to know the total amount of money collected this past season just to cover damage to the wings!

A gorilla goes into a bar and orders a beer. The bartender figuring the gorilla can't be too smart charges it $15.00 for the beer. After the gorilla has a couple more the bartender says to him "we don't get many gorillas in here." The gorilla replies "At fifteen dollars a beer I can see why!"

OLDMAN

[Carl Lopez]

Oh my god! I'm drunk aren't I?

Nevermind.

Anybody else willing to fess up?

[cdh]

Carl, if you are going to write a lengthy post, I would do it in MS Word, or any text editor, where you can save as you go. Once complete simply copy and paste it into the post dialog box. Another benefit doing it this way is having sppelinng erorrs fixxed as you go

[Carl Lopez]

Thanks for the advice. I sort of float in and out of checking the computer for what's up... and sometimes get frustrated that its not doing what I want it to do....like leaving off what I thought was really brilliant, insightful, funny prose that....well, I just can't recall right now, after substantial ounces of Chardonnay. Like right now, I'm not sure whether this message is going directly to you, or to the SBRS communications investigative unit or to every person on the Juicy Network. Fact is, I really don't give much of a hoot since its not like I'm leaking the source of photos of the President's gay dominatrix Secretary of Defense. (Available in album form)
Its only a racing school. Lighten the F up! Now if I punch "Post Quick Reply" Where does it go? To you? To everybody?
Problaly shoud have found that out before I pressed "Send".

[badgersid]

I hope you enjoy your new job as much as the old one.OH WAIT!

[Carl Lopez]

Thanks Sid! I was hoping that my new job would be deck hand on the SS Brenner, maybe even first mate. I hear that the owner uses it so infrequently, that you can usually get the damage repaired before he comes back. Of course it would be a full-year, union wage position, with November through April spent on ordering new parts and provisions.
As long as I had no access to internet, it might even last a while.

[StevieDe]

Bobo & SY,

Thought I would weigh in on the subject of wings. . .
I couldn't just stand by and watch Papa Lopez fall on his sword unsupported.

Wings (especially ones with significant downforce) have no business on a school car. JP,PTCruiser and Carl all made excellent points. Less grip and a more forgiving platform is what is needed.(Not to mention OLDMANS excellent point on crash damage$$)

For Advanced Acitvities and Regional Races the same applies. As a driver development series and a home for the casual racer, the car control skills and race craft from low horsepower/ moderate drag (draft) are most important!
The higher corner speeds from downforce/grip do not neccessarily equate directly to the 'FUN FACTOR' and learning experience. . .

For the Nationals, sure you bet, proper wings with the ability to learn the Drag vs Downforce set up issues that will loom in the big leaques makes sense. . .

The Wings we are saddled with now are a marketing excercise gone bad and are as costly as they are ineffective. . .

Just a Dinasour's view from the cheap seats!
Evil Homer

[Gerardo]

This post will close this thread.

Thank you all for your comments, suggestions, and ideas. Here's a summary of what you have written, in no particular order of importance.

1. Most wrote that school cars do not need wings. Whether wings should be present for Advance Activities and REGIONAL race series events was mixed. Most agreed National series races should have wings of some form and adjustability.

2. Many wrote that wings look cool, and that a cool looking race car is important for marketing the product to new drivers, and for providing satisfaction for everyone who gets in the car. The question in my mind is, can we make the car look modern / cool / sexy without wings? The street car Ferrari 430 looks pretty sexy without a big rice-rocket wing on the back, doesn't it? There has to be a way to make our race car look cool without a wing if we collectively think no wing is a good thing.

3. Logistics of adjusting wings during REGIONAL race weekends makes that idea unfeasible. NATIONAL cars don't have such a logistical problem and could make it happen.

4. Some commented about the school car feeling light on its feet. I know the feeling you are talking about, and the new car can be set up mechanically to feel secure with or without wings.

5. JP made excellent comments about improving the quality of the race car with softer tires for the NATIONAL series. Perhaps a tire similar to the old Barber Dodge Pro Series tire? It was a medium compound that could last a race weekend for a single driver, so not suitable for REGIONAL, but fine for NATIONAL where everyone has their own car. Perhaps this topic will appear in a future survey.

6. JP made more excellent key comments about how Masters National drivers would drive the car no matter what car it is if the car was FUN to drive, and in a FUN environment. I would imagine this applies to REGIONAL drivers as well.

7. Doug Harrison reminded us how the R/T 2000 looks with his ant-eater Photoshop work.

8. Here's an interesting quote from Spencer. "Once every car in the field has them (wings), they become pointless."

9. Many believe lots of downforce makes following the car ahead closely near impossible in faster corners (see Formula 1). There were several comments about high downforce hurting the quality of the racing. Although there were several arguments in favor of drag, to increase drafting.

10. Carl made many great comments, but I'd like to point out his comments about painting the cars to resemble famous historic and current race cars. I'll never forget seeing people waiting in line at the Richard Petty Driving Experience to drive the Dale Earnhardt or Jeff Gordon car, as generic school labeled cars sat on pit lane, even though the cars were identical mechanically, and all the cars built as school cars at Petty's headquarters.

11. Carl had an interesting idea about wings that were purely cosmetic and made of extremely cheap materials, to satisfy the "marketing / looks" needs (assuming the car needs that to look cool / modern / sexy).

12. We love to make fun of Oldman for always bringing up cost, but he struck a chord with me when he wrote, "They don't, however, add $2000 worth of enjoyment to my race weekend." I know not everyone will agree with this comment, but I have a feeling the majority of people who think wings are $2000 worth of enjoyment per weekend are National drivers (okay, a stretch since you don't wreck them every weekend, but it is an interesting point).

13. Another comment was made that the wings are there to generate revenue for SBRS. I offer this counterpoint. It makes no sense to add parts just to create revenue. At the end of the day, its costly for both the customer and the company to follow that strategy. A cost efficient car is in the interest of everyone. If wings make it to the new car, it is my hope there will be clear reason.

If I missed your comments in this summary, rest assured, the world can still read your comments in the preceding posts.

Once again, thank you all for your participation in this survey. Stay tuned for Survey #2 of 8.