VIR!!

[PFS]

Ha! I can testify that I have SEEN, first hand, at least twice (canada corner and turn 3 at RA) the car behind your dad attempt a not-so-gentle prostate exam on his car. Not pretty...not pretty at all.

[Sparrk]

I happened to be at VIR this weekend and got to meet with a few of you guys. I really enjoyed the day and took a lot of photos. These are just a couple of them. If anybody wants the images just let me know.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by motojoe

..BUT, the new format stunk. The response I got from those who had driven in Sportsman was negative. Whats the attraction if the first five drivers are so much quicker, more expierenced, professional/semi-professional, to the middle runners? Before someone who raced mid-pack, could at least see themselves up front with some luck. I didnt find any one I knew, who drove sportman in the past that liked the single championship format.

Hey Moto - just curious, were there other drivers you could race with or did you end up running alone/lapping? I hope you got into some good battles.

For me, the point of racing with better drivers is to get faster. Maybe I can win one someday, maybe not, doesn't mean I wont have fun and (hopefully) keep learning along the way.

Will you be at the Glen? Fun weekend, hope you're there.

[rf360m]

Originally Posted by cdh

For me, the point of racing with better drivers is to get faster. Maybe I can win one someday, maybe not, doesn't mean I wont have fun and (hopefully) keep learning along the way.

I agree that is a big benefit of running with people who are slightly faster than you. If they just drive off into the distance then you don't learn anything and only end up having fewer people to race with. Also in order to become better by running with faster cars you need to be able to race often. Racing a few times a year doesn't make you faster regardless of who you run with. In my opinion this is the problem with a single group. Unless you are going to be the nest Schumacher you're not going to get faster by running only a few times a year. So it would be better to have groups where everyone is approximately the same experience level. Then you get more of a chance that you will run with someone that is a similar speed to your own.

[chsutherland]

Sure looks like fun. Thanks for the pics!

[MikeC]

Hi everyone! This is my first post here, I saw this thread and thought i'd chime in too. I'm still very green to racing, this was only my 6th weekend (I can't really afford more then 2 events a year). I'd have to say though that this was probably one of the worst race weekends for me so far. Not that anything bad happened, it just wasn't very fun for me. In my past races I've managed finishes all across the board, from almost last to as high as fourth; in each of those weekends I had fun no matter the finish because there were people I could battle with. This past race weekend (both days) I was completely left behind by the top 6 or 7 and just far enough in front of the rest of the pack that I didn't see another car after the first lap. I'm not sure what the idea was behind the elimination of the sportsman group but I didn't see the sense of it after this weekend. If I wanted to spend $5k to essentially go lapping I could have dropped that money into something like one of those Drive F1 events. Maybe this weekend was just a one-off for me but if the new grouping is here to stay I'd at least like to see some tweaks in the future to level out the playing field. Perhaps something like a short pre-qualifier to determine the race groups.

[rf360m]

Good post MikeC.

I agree that having one group makes it far less likely that you'll have someone to run against.

How about this: After Friday practice split everyone up into 4 groups. Group 1 consists of the top fastest 25%, group 2 of the next fastest 25%, group 3 of the next fastest 25%, and group 4 of the next fastest 25%. You might do some tweaking of the fastest and slowest drivers in each group to ensure they are in the correct group.

Then for the people who are worried about drivers getting podiums and race wins too easily, only give trophies and the race win to the top 3 finishers from group 1.

I think this would put people of similar ability in the same race group, making it more fun. The Sunday racers who do only a few races a year will have just as much fun in their group as the racers who are lucky enough to race every event.

I'm not sure if this has been tried before, but what do people think?

[robbyracenut]

Originally Posted by rf360m

Good post MikeC.

I agree that having one group makes it far less likely that you'll have someone to run against.

How about this: After Friday practice split everyone up into 4 groups. Group 1 consists of the top fastest 25%, group 2 of the next fastest 25%, group 3 of the next fastest 25%, and group 4 of the next fastest 25%. You might do some tweaking of the fastest and slowest drivers in each group to ensure they are in the correct group.

Then for the people who are worried about drivers getting podiums and race wins too easily, only give trophies and the race win to the top 3 finishers from group 1.

I think this would put people of similar ability in the same race group, making it more fun. The Sunday racers who do only a few races a year will have just as much fun in their group as the racers who are lucky enough to race every event.

I'm not sure if this has been tried before, but what do people think?

I'd agree, though I'd say make the points exclusive to the top group. I'm happy to be part of a "lesser" group of racers in groups 2-4 who are racing only for pride and skill development while having to work a real job and support a family. If Skippy only allocates points to the top race group based on qualifying, there would be plenty of incentive to qualify well and race in group 1, but the rest of us could happily fight it out for pride of being the "best of the rest" with some realistic chance of success...

[chsutherland]

I could care less about points or trophies. Seat time and instruction are paramount. The rest will follow.

[WatertownNewbie]

Originally Posted by robbyracenut

I'd agree, though I'd say make the points exclusive to the top group. I'm happy to be part of a "lesser" group of racers in groups 2-4 who are racing only for pride and skill development ...

Sounds good to me too. Based on past performance, Todd can always insert someone in the correct group if they skip the Friday practice day. I would benefit from more competition and fewer races that turn into lapping days.

[GEORGE]

I had to chime in on this one. At first I was in favor of one group for all. I could really care less about trophies or points. I cannot afford to race too many times a year.
I have attended race weekends that were the BEST , and I have had weekends that were less than stellar. The great weekends were all similar. I got to race WITH someone! Were may not have been racing for a podium but we were RACING, not lapping.
Last fall I had a weekend of disappointment. Everything was fine throughout the weekend, except, I didn't race. I lapped. The six in front of me were 2 seconds a lap faster, then me, then the six behind me.
I remember going around alone, waiting for someone to lap me. They would pass me, and for a while, my lap times would go down as I tried to keep up (that idea of faster drivers making you faster works only so long as you are in touch with them) and then they would go back to my comfort level.
I could honestly care less about the two groups, but I would like to be in a group with other people who are similarly time challenged as I.
Last year I had some of the best fun at races where I was embroiled in a close race with other racers in my league(slow) We diced throughout, the instructors said we should have worked together to move up and pass the hot shoe up front. I know this would have been the correct thing to do. But we were having TOO DAMN MUCH FUN racing each other.
It's not about trophies for those of us who have faced the reality that we are not going to pilot an F1 car. We just want to experience the feeling of real racing.
And Good Luck to the really fast guys on their way up

[cdh]

Originally Posted by rf360m

....Racing a few times a year doesn't make you faster regardless of who you run with. In my opinion this is the problem with a single group. Unless you are going to be the nest Schumacher you're not going to get faster by running only a few times a year. So it would be better to have groups where everyone is approximately the same experience level. Then you get more of a chance that you will run with someone that is a similar speed to your own.

Russell, I could not disagree more. If you are fortunate enough to be able to run a few races a year you should be able to see improvement. If not it could be the "sportsman complacency" I experienced - that is, after running Sportsman for a while, going back to the Championship level I discovered I had lost a lot of the drive/agressive attitude I had when I began in single group, and that attitude is important IMHO.

Last time I say this - this is a hobby for the vast majority of racers. I don't expect to run up front in Champ. I hope to have good racing with the other hobbyists and keep learning, keep getting faster. No reason this wont be the case with a single group format.

Originally Posted by MikeC

Hi everyone! This is my first post here, I saw this thread and thought i'd chime in too. I'm still very green to racing, this was only my 6th weekend (I can't really afford more then 2 events a year). I'd have to say though that this was probably one of the worst race weekends for me so far. Not that anything bad happened, it just wasn't very fun for me. In my past races I've managed finishes all across the board, from almost last to as high as fourth; in each of those weekends I had fun no matter the finish because there were people I could battle with. This past race weekend (both days) I was completely left behind by the top 6 or 7 and just far enough in front of the rest of the pack that I didn't see another car after the first lap. I'm not sure what the idea was behind the elimination of the sportsman group but I didn't see the sense of it after this weekend. If I wanted to spend $5k to essentially go lapping I could have dropped that money into something like one of those Drive F1 events. Maybe this weekend was just a one-off for me but if the new grouping is here to stay I'd at least like to see some tweaks in the future to level out the playing field. Perhaps something like a short pre-qualifier to determine the race groups.

Hey Mike, thanks for posting. I would say that if you have had only one "lapping" race out of 6 you are doing well. I have had many solo races out of the 30 or so(?) races I have run. I started with the orig. one group format, did quite a few Sportsman races, ran with Masters National and have done one Invitational. Doesn't matter the format, you can have great battles or no battles in any given race, in any given format.

I think SB tries to assign a good mix of skill levels in all groups so the odds of finding yourself alone in a race is minimized. Maybe assigning racers based on quali times is a good idea.

Been only one weekend with the new/old system, I would say give it more of a chance, it used to work well, no reason it can't now.

[Slowhands]

Interesting thoughts in this thread.

Having spent a considerable time at the back of Sportsman myself, I understand the issues being raised here. IMO the format of having the front of the group within a reachable distance of my limited pace was an effective carrot to keep me motivated and hopeful enough to keep working, even though I realized full well there was another group that was so fast it seemed impossible I would ever develop those skills. But getting on the podium of Sportsman seemed doable and was without question an interim goal that kept me trying even through months of frustration.

On the other hand Doug, you bring up interesting points about "complacency" and aggressiveness. This is racing, after all. And I think that an aggressive, competitive attitude is essential not only to going faster, but to keep doing the work on fundamentals required to go faster.

Rather than number of race events per se, from my own experience and what I see on the track, IMO the biggest thing standing between Sportsman-level drivers and Championship-level driving is simply the car control needed to stay ahead of the car and confidently keep sufficient speed up in the corners to improve lap times, and to keep aggressiveness from translating into spins in race situations. I personally don't believe enough time was spent emphasizing this in my early stages of Skip training, ie the 3 day and ADV2 (I was also a S L O W learner, so there's that...). I understand that it's difficult since people come into SB with vastly different abilities in this area. The ones who have learned it through previous experience, either 2 or 4 wheel, through karting, or come by it naturally, progress more rapidly. I finally listened to Terry Earwood, to whom I will be eternally grateful, who kept badgering me to take another car control clinic. For me, I had to learn how to tell what the car was going to do before it actually did it, and little by little how to guide it better, before I could get braver about carrying speed and doing the things JP was asking me to do in Lead-Follow.

The second biggest difference I see is in the control (not just smoothness) of brake release needed to make the adjustments right at turn-in to control how much rolling speed gets carried into a corner.

Car control and brake release have everything to do with how confident one feels in the car at top speed. The Skippy car is such a handful that mastering this can require practice outside of race events. What I would say to a Sportsman level driver who is unhappy with his/her speed is to work on car control and brake release at every opportunity (see Grant Ryley's thread on practicing brake release in your street car).

I agree with Doug that we need to give this format some time to see how it feels. I plan on running a couple of events before making up my mind.

[rf360m]

Originally Posted by cdh

Russell, I could not disagree more. If you are fortunate enough to be able to run a few races a year you should be able to see improvement. If not it could be the "sportsman complacency" I experienced - that is, after running Sportsman for a while, going back to the Championship level I discovered I had lost a lot of the drive/agressive attitude I had when I began in single group, and that attitude is important IMHO.

I agree that you do see improvement through out the weekend, but I don't think that the improvement necessarily continues from one weekend to the next.

Let's say you have enough money to do 2 race weekends, which now is $10,000. This is the race weekend and Friday practice. No additional sessions, no lead-follows, nothing but the basics. This was what I would be able to do in the past. So by the end of Friday, I'm pretty confident with the car, and could probably qualify well in my group. Then in my races I'd push, but be careful. There's no point in being too agressive and crashing out. You lose seat time, plus up to $5,000 in crash damage. That would mean the end of your season, and possibly the next season as well. So it's very important for those of us in this situation, to take it easy, and not go all out.

However, you need to go all out to catch the fast guys. So if you have enough money to not care about crash damage then, great, go all out. Otherwise, caution is the better part of valor.

Now if my next race weekend is 2-4 months away (not to mention an entire year), by that time I've lost the confidence in the car and have to start over again.

So I believe that for someone like me that having a group of 20 people with about the same level of experience is better than having some really fast agreesive drivers who I'll never see after turn one mixed into my group. It's just more fun. That is what I'm trying to get from Skip Barber. The fun factor. If one day I have enough money to do an entire season, then that may change. But there will still be people who can only do one or two races a year, and I would think want it to be fun.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by rf360m

....So I believe that for someone like me that having a group of 20 people with about the same level of experience is better than having some really fast agreesive drivers who I'll never see after turn one mixed into my group. It's just more fun. That is what I'm trying to get from Skip Barber. The fun factor. If one day I have enough money to do an entire season, then that may change. But there will still be people who can only do one or two races a year, and I would think want it to be fun.

I hear ya Russell, I really do. I almost modified my earlier post to include "I am out there to have fun more than anything else".

I've had more single-race seasons than multi-race seasons and I may only race 2x this summer. I have also made the mistake of forgetting I am rusty and driving too hard, too fast, too soon and crashing my first time back in the car. If I spend a session warming up at a track I know, the feel of the car and track comes back quickly, lap times come down to where they were previously and I then try picking off tenths, pushing a bit, trying to keep up with anyone ahead of me, etc.

I don't have a large damage cushion in my budget so I tend to drive at 8 or 9 tenths most of the time also. It's better (for me) to leave some lap time on the table than risk CD and lost seat time. As you say, it's the fun factor that wins out - "crash damage is expensive and we don't recommend it".

Putting the groups together based on quali times is a possible solution, or maybe one group of the new/less experienced drivers and the other groups a good mix of the rest.

Thanks for adding to this discussion, there is no one perfect scenario, but lets give the one group thing a bit more of a try. It worked when I was just starting out, and I was intimidated by the fast guys (and many were "older" drivers, not always the kiddies), we raced those not-so-sticky, hockey puck slicks, etc., it was spooky out there as a part timer. But we still had a blast, had good racing and kept improving, it should still work now.

There will always be different skill levels in SB racing, if you want to be running at the front, bring lot's of money and get lots of seat time. Except for the gifted few, that is what it takes to run for the top three spots. Otherwise push as hard as you dare to keep up with the ones ahead of you and do as Nick Nick says - "for God's sake enjoy it"!

[Mopar92]

Who is GT??? Does that stand for gravel trap? Watkins Glen? Hmmm.

By the way, guys, thanks for coming to VIR. I had a great time being there... Keith

[ML Peter Ludwig]

I need to say something here before my head explodes;

#1 - Racing is not cheap, I don't care what type of racing it is, other then Karts.
#2 - If your on a low budget go to Karts
#3 - Racing is competitive and requires one to be agressive and push the envelope to find the limits, this is the true spirit of racing, everything else is just being a poser.
#4 - Skip Barber is a race series - RACE SERIES with the best coaching and guidance anywhere in the world.
#5 - If your worried about crash damage, you should pick a less expensive hobby for yourself.
#6 - If your worried about running by yourself in a group mixed with fast and slow guys, your either too fast or too slow, if your too slow suck it up and get the competitive spirit and be more aggresive. Accept this dilemma as a challenge and rise to the occasion just like every other beginner that stuck with it and perservered. This is the true essence of the meaning "accomplishment". If your afraid of crash damage go back to #4 or #6 below.
#7 - Racing is not cut out for everyone, it requires lots of money and balls to be a racer, the latter you must inherit, the money too if your lucky. (Money does not give you the latter.)
#8 - If your on a budget and just want some fun stick with an outdoor Kart track or visit Sy @ NYGP
#9 - Sorry if I offended 65% of you guys but someone had to tell you
#10 - See you all at the Glen

[5&counting]

Lug's

Well put BUT!

Glad you had money to see you through the tough times for points #11 and #12.

#11 "Losing" due to lack of talent that even the best coaches overcame.
#12 Crashing due to the inability to listen to your skull of mush and LIFT.

Look at you now. A Champion, a professional, you still have a hot wife, great kids and your brother now has the needle in his arm.

Next step ... Chapter 11 or maybe 7.


X - 5&Counting

[ML Peter Ludwig]

A few more Matty

#13 - There is no such thing as immediate gratification in racing, earning your stripes is most often painful and costly.

#14 - Sometimes going 11/10ths is the best way to to find where 10/10ths is.

[OLDMAN]

Peter:
Tell us how you really feel!

I have to agree with you. I also hate racing with all the loser peasant pretenders who think they have the right to race only once or twice a year. Who do they think they are? Remember that guy that used to show up in that "K" car? What a jerk!


OLDMAN

BTW It's "you're" not "your".

[MikeC]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I'm not saying that the weekend was a total bust but it definitely wasn't my best which at the time I attributed to the new format. I'm willing to give the new format a chance but that probably won't be for a while.

Originally Posted by ML Peter Ludwig

I need to say something here before my head explodes;

#1 - Racing is not cheap, I don't care what type of racing it is, other then Karts.
#2 - If your on a low budget go to Karts
#3 - Racing is competitive and requires one to be agressive and push the envelope to find the limits, this is the true spirit of racing, everything else is just being a poser.
#4 - Skip Barber is a race series - RACE SERIES with the best coaching and guidance anywhere in the world.
#5 - If your worried about crash damage, you should pick a less expensive hobby for yourself.
#6 - If your worried about running by yourself in a group mixed with fast and slow guys, your either too fast or too slow, if your too slow suck it up and get the competitive spirit and be more aggresive. Accept this dilemma as a challenge and rise to the occasion just like every other beginner that stuck with it and perservered. This is the true essence of the meaning "accomplishment". If your afraid of crash damage go back to #4 or #6 below.
#7 - Racing is not cut out for everyone, it requires lots of money and balls to be a racer, the latter you must inherit, the money too if your lucky. (Money does not give you the latter.)
#8 - If your on a budget and just want some fun stick with an outdoor Kart track or visit Sy @ NYGP
#9 - Sorry if I offended 65% of you guys but someone had to tell you
#10 - See you all at the Glen

Peter, you make some legitimate points and I'm sure most of us who participate in this sport know it's expensive and a real challenge.

That being said, money is an issue that not all of us have much control over. My biggest problem right now is that I don't know what my limits are because I've never been 100% comfortable with the race car. Unfortunately I don't see a quick fix to that without more seat time... see how that ties in with the money issue? Lack of desire and lack of money are two different things, the shame of it is that the lack of money usually wins over even the most competitive spirits. I'd say for the time being that I still have the desire to stick with it and try to move forward with the means I have.

And regarding my original posting, imagine if you will that you were in my position, (You were in my race group @ VIR) how am I supposed to match someone of your skill level after only 6 races... You ran away from the whole field!

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

...I have to agree with you. I also hate racing with all the loser peasant pretenders who think they have the right to race only once or twice a year. Who do they think they are? Remember that guy that used to show up in that "K" car? What a jerk!

I'm not sure if this is some inside joke but that comes off as really discriminatory. Just because some of us can't afford more then one or two races a year does that mean we should be denied a safe place to practice and refine our skills, isn't that the whole point of the regional race series after all?

[dalyduo]

Love this thread.

Mike, OLDMAN'S ironic tongue is firmly planted in his hollow cheek. He races once or twice a year due to cost and though his "other" car is a Cobra I'd bet money the K-car referrence is to his own wheels as he's been singing your song in a different key since probably before you were born. Right OLDMAN?

Originally Posted by MikeC

I'm not sure if this is some inside joke but that comes off as really discriminatory. Just because some of us can't afford more then one or two races a year does that mean we should be denied a safe place to practice and refine our skills, isn't that the whole point of the regional race series after all?

[robbyracenut]

I'm seriously inclined to think that Ludwig is just being a jerk... and a mistaken one at that. What he says might be valid if we were talking about F1 or ALMS or some other pro series. I'd even go so far as to say it might be more relevant if we were talking about SCCA club racing. The thing he completely fails to grasp about Skip Barber is that the competitive advantage Skip Barber enjoys has nothing to do with being an ultra competitive cutthroat racing series. It is because it is a great place to go and learn. Remind me again why we pay to have instructors at every corner?

You probably see implicit in my statement above that I'm not actually complaining about costs; I'm perfectly cognizant of the fact that any type of car racing is expensive. What I (and many other people on this thread) are saying is that there is a way to make the experience a better learning tool as well as more fun. Its not about whimping out in the eyes of those few who luckily enough have the money to go racing in more expensive series and only deign to grace us "lowbies" in the regional series with their presence once or twice a year. What it is about is trying to see to it that the races are exactly that... Races. Not glorified lapping days, but real wheel to wheel races. I'm not asking for recognition, just the chance to experience racing with others of my ability level. I was quick enough to be ahead of the back pack, and slow enough to have no prayer of keeping up with the one in front even with the draft. Not terribly instructional in my book.

As for the mistaken belief that "Going 11/10ths is the best way to to find where 10/10ths is", I just have to laugh. Go run that one by some of the instructors and see how they react. Its also disturbing that you feel like you've got "the insider knowledge" and feel like no one else could possibly have been smart enough to develop a grasp of what racing is really about. For all the people who have been bemoaning the lack of camaraderie in the series lately, look no further than this thread for one of the reasons. New drivers just aren't welcomed by the other drivers in their first few race weekends. At VIR it really was an "old boys' club" mentality where the more experienced guys gave the strong impression that they were doing you a favor by taking the time to talk to you. Left a bad impression with a number of us rookies. Threads like this make me question whether it was an isolated incident.

[jdr922]

I just had to chime in and could not sit idly by reading this war of words as it seems to be developing into. I decided at an advanced age after putting my kids through school that I wanted to pursue the life long passion for racing and spend some of my hard earned money by "investing" it in SBR. I did not (and do not) have unlimited funds yet my goal, which is different from that of some other drivers in SBR, was to experience the joys and thrills of driving a race car. When I began I had no idea of the incredible skills that were needed to learn race craft. I view SBR as an ametuer series, one where we learn and develop skills. Some may chose to progress to professional ranks but for the most part (I believe) the drivers are like myself with a competitive urge and a desire to race cars. I don't think it means I do not have big balls because I will not destroy my car in turn #1 lap #1 but rather a level of smarts for me as I'd love to do 20 laps rather than 1 corner and call it a weekend. I have worked hard as we all have to learn race craft with the instructor feedback as well as countless incredible L-F experiences wit JP. I have been instructed not to drive at 11/10ths from a pro (JP) but rather work and develop my skills in an effort to be capable of advancing in a responsible controlled manner. I know with great coaching and incredible patience I am improving. I believe SBR is a beginning. There are so many wonderful instructors and coaches willing to share their time. If one choses to get more cut throat I'd suggest they should ( as many have) advance to more serious levels. If combining in one group makes sense then it gives me a barometer to measure my progress. Last year at MT Gary and I passed one another 20 times and had a blast, but we were no where near the front. That was ok. Yes, I'd rather win. But I am aware of my skill sets. Perhaps one day I will (from my mouth to JP's ears). I promise you this...I will love every second of the journey. One last thought... there are some veterans who have been very open, incredbly helpful, warm, and friendly, the Greists, Jim Craige, and many others just to name a few. My first race weekend at WG Chris Wiclox took time for me. Made me feel special. We're all one special group and we should welcome old and new drivers into the fray. See everyone at WG

[cdh]

Lugnutz - why are you running regionals with us losers, er...posers, and not the Nationals where you can test yourself? You have gotten so fast in the R/T, wouldn't it be more fun to challenge yourself than simply walk a regional field? Good chance you'd walk the National field - and the Nats are running those new sticky slicks dropping many seconds off lap times everywhere. That would be much more in the spirit of your post......no?

Aren't you racing at LRP GAC this weekend?

BTW - "#5 - If your worried about crash damage, you should pick a less expensive hobby for yourself." is the most inane statement I have ever heard about SB racing.

And 5&counting - not sure if the powers that be would be too happy with your overt agreement of Pete's post,
but that's just my
_______________

cdh

[jdr922]

One last mention...forgive me Chris Wilcox (sp) and Pat and Doug and so many other really great guys who've gone out of their way to be friendly and helpful. This includes the likes of Gerrardo, Phil, Rob, Keith, Kelly, and the entire crew.

[rgreist]

Originally Posted by robbyracenut

I'm seriously inclined to think that Ludwig is just being a jerk... and a mistaken one at that. What he says might be valid if we were talking about F1 or ALMS or some other pro series. I'd even go so far as to say it might be more relevant if we were talking about SCCA club racing. The thing he completely fails to grasp about Skip Barber is that the competitive advantage Skip Barber enjoys has nothing to do with being an ultra competitive cutthroat racing series. It is because it is a great place to go and learn. Remind me again why we pay to have instructors at every corner?

You probably see implicit in my statement above that I'm not actually complaining about costs; I'm perfectly cognizant of the fact that any type of car racing is expensive. What I (and many other people on this thread) are saying is that there is a way to make the experience a better learning tool as well as more fun. Its not about whimping out in the eyes of those few who luckily enough have the money to go racing in more expensive series and only deign to grace us "lowbies" in the regional series with their presence once or twice a year. What it is about is trying to see to it that the races are exactly that... Races. Not glorified lapping days, but real wheel to wheel races. I'm not asking for recognition, just the chance to experience racing with others of my ability level. I was quick enough to be ahead of the back pack, and slow enough to have no prayer of keeping up with the one in front even with the draft. Not terribly instructional in my book.

As for the mistaken belief that "Going 11/10ths is the best way to to find where 10/10ths is", I just have to laugh. Go run that one by some of the instructors and see how they react. Its also disturbing that you feel like you've got "the insider knowledge" and feel like no one else could possibly have been smart enough to develop a grasp of what racing is really about. For all the people who have been bemoaning the lack of camaraderie in the series lately, look no further than this thread for one of the reasons. New drivers just aren't welcomed by the other drivers in their first few race weekends. At VIR it really was an "old boys' club" mentality where the more experienced guys gave the strong impression that they were doing you a favor by taking the time to talk to you. Left a bad impression with a number of us rookies. Threads like this make me question whether it was an isolated incident.

1. Ludwig is being a jerk. But that's why we love him.

2. You really don't know what you're talking about. Knock that chip off your shoulder.

[GEORGE]

THIS is just like the old Juicy site. The bitching, needling, and tongue twisting. I hope to see all of you at The Glen this weekend. Some of you may even get to be friends.
I don't really think the tone of this thread was going anywhere good. Emails usually go downhill fast when there is a difference of opinion. Face to face is the only way to really discuss this.
AND THEN, If that doesn't work.......a Duel!!!
"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!"

[ML Peter Ludwig]

Originally Posted by rgreist

1. Ludwig is being a jerk. But that's why we love him.

2. You really don't know what you're talking about. Knock that chip off your shoulder.

I like to consider myself the King of Jerks but I love everybody Revere, please vote for me as I am flying to France this week to put my name in the hat for FIA president next year.

Doug,

I will be at Lime Rock in Koni this week, I was just teasing and being the jerk that everyone loves. I thought VIR was a great event. The cars were running better then ever (thanks to Joe and the crew) and all groups ran smooth and swift. I personally met several new drivers and gave them any advice I could, only one of them hit the Oak Tree when trying to go 11/10ths. My brother Ralf did his first race weekend and he loved every minute of it, he now has the needle firmly in the arm!!! (He finished dead last and third from last in his races BTW).

BUT HE DID NOT WHINE about it.

Why is everyone so sensitive?.

[chsutherland]

What kind of Cobra Oldman? CSX2000 or 3000? I have a buyer if you want to sell. Beat Christies earlier in the year. Sounds like there were many lessons learned on this thread. Racing is expensive, life isn't fair and there are assholes everywhere.

[badgersid]

NEEDLESS to say peter is RIGHT about all but one thing

he meant to say i am sorry if i ONLY offended 65% i was going for a 100%

that being said remember why this sight was started.

it was to poke sticks and tell your fellow drivers all that they did wrong and why you did better.

you new guys are not getting it WAKE UP

if you think this is an old boys club there is somthing wrong with you not us

ask john edwards or gabby or jordan or any other of the kids under the age of 16 that are part of the old boys club

the one group system warked for the first 22 years and produced most of the worlds best pro drivers

and most of the best amateur drivers around

if you are doing this just to have fun and not progress you are in it for the wrong reason

it is fun more fun than any of you can imagine

most of that comes from watching your self progress from 29th to 19th to 12th or best of all to win

just driving around a race track with your friends is like driving on the highway only driving on the highway is cheaper and more cost effective

in closing let me say i mean to offend you all and than ask you for money. if any of you feel that you are not in the boys club please see me at the glen

if i am in it anyone should be able to get in.

i have not seen anyone more abrasive or as crude as myself in 26 years of racing and i am able to get alon with every loser at the track

anybody with any comments can reach me at my office

that address is

[rgreist]

Ok. I've had my coffee and regained my composure.

Let me try to explain why this post is frustrating me. First, the sense of cameraderie at Skippy weekends is greater and more palpable than in any other racing environment I've experienced. Sure, things get tetchy sometimes because everybody's racing each other and wants to win, but generally, people support each other and look forward to being with their friends at the next weekend. Some cliques form, but that's true in any social situation. It's a feature of humanity.

Skip Barber the organization and most of us who have been part of the series for a while go out of our way to welcome and encourage new people. I can't remember a weekend where my dad and I haven't mentored new drivers as part of the Skip Barber mentor program. Some of my mentees (mentos? manatees?) have gone on to greatness: Stevan Mcaleer is competitive in the Skippy National Series (and of course I attribute his speed solely to my skills as a mentor). Others are great guys whom I look forward to seeing at race weekends (Mark Fee, Gary Vizioli, and Jeff Rothstein come to mind). Still others I never see again. But my point is that many of us who are series regulars go out of our way to encourage new people. I can't imagine a more welcoming environment than Skip Barber.

Second, as to being quick and winning races: for most of us, it takes time. And Peter's right. If you don't want to invest the time, other sports beckon. I did my school in '93 and won my first race (ahem, beating Grant Maiman, I might add) at the very end of the season in '98. And the only reason I won that race was because all of the quick guys in the Midwest championship were in the season-ending championship group. We also-rans who couldn't afford a whole season were in the other two groups. Another point I'd like to make here is that it took both me and my dad FOUR YEARS to go flat through the Kink. That was in the old cars, and it was more difficult, but still, four years is a long time.

It takes time to be competitive. I'm re-experiencing that reality right now. This year I'm driving a FF2000 in SCCA regional, national, and pro events. I've done two race weekends, and in each, finished behind drivers I know I'm quicker than because they have their cars more sorted out than we do ours at the moment. It's going to take time to figure out the car and the unique challenges of this series. It probably won't take four or five years because I'm a better driver now, but it will take time. And until we do figure it out, I'll endure some level of frustration. But when we do, it will feel great. And I'll be the King of the World! Yay!

P.S. Pete, if you become FIA president, I think we might be in for more videotaped "antics!" I imagine someone of German descent would be at the top of the list to succeed Mosley. And is your brother's name seriously Ralf? Doesn't that make you Michael?!

[rgreist]

Originally Posted by badgersid

NEEDLESS to say peter is RIGHT about all but one thing

he meant to say i am sorry if i ONLY offended 65% i was going for a 100%

that being said remember why this sight was started.

it was to poke sticks and tell your fellow drivers all that they did wrong and why you did better.

you new guys are not getting it WAKE UP

if you think this is an old boys club there is somthing wrong with you not us

ask john edwards or gabby or jordan or any other of the kids under the age of 16 that are part of the old boys club

the one group system warked for the first 22 years and produced most of the worlds best pro drivers

and most of the best amateur drivers around

if you are doing this just to have fun and not progress you are in it for the wrong reason

it is fun more fun than any of you can imagine

most of that comes from watching your self progress from 29th to 19th to 12th or best of all to win

just driving around a race track with your friends is like driving on the highway only driving on the highway is cheaper and more cost effective

in closing let me say i mean to offend you all and than ask you for money. if any of you feel that you are not in the boys club please see me at the glen

if i am in it anyone should be able to get in.

i have not seen anyone more abrasive or as crude as myself in 26 years of racing and i am able to get alon with every loser at the track

anybody with any comments can reach me at my office

that address is

Totally awesome.

[badgersid]

revier thanks that means a lot coming from one of the guys i dislike the most. i want in to the old boys club midwest division or i am telling my mom.

and you left out dude after the awesome

are you and dad coming to the glen?

hope to see you both soon

[chsutherland]

I agree that everyone was extremely kind when I started. However I didn't wait for people to approach me, I went right up and invited myself to dinner with them. I don't think I paid for any of those meals either. My thought is that if you show up in a BMW, Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche etc, you can buy my broke ass dinner. My only gripe with SBRS is too little seat time. I will pay more, I just want that to translate into more time on the track. Could care less about groups, trophies etc. If I end up driving alone during the race, life isn't fair. Sometimes that happens. If one was leading and driving all alone no complaints would heard. SBRS can't give you everything, there will be times you end up all alone. It happens.
cs

[rf360m]

Originally Posted by badgersid

NEEDLESS to say peter is RIGHT about all but one thing

he meant to say i am sorry if i ONLY offended 65% i was going for a 100%

that being said remember why this sight was started.

it was to poke sticks and tell your fellow drivers all that they did wrong and why you did better.

you new guys are not getting it WAKE UP

if you think this is an old boys club there is somthing wrong with you not us

ask john edwards or gabby or jordan or any other of the kids under the age of 16 that are part of the old boys club

the one group system warked for the first 22 years and produced most of the worlds best pro drivers

and most of the best amateur drivers around

if you are doing this just to have fun and not progress you are in it for the wrong reason

it is fun more fun than any of you can imagine

most of that comes from watching your self progress from 29th to 19th to 12th or best of all to win

just driving around a race track with your friends is like driving on the highway only driving on the highway is cheaper and more cost effective

in closing let me say i mean to offend you all and than ask you for money. if any of you feel that you are not in the boys club please see me at the glen

if i am in it anyone should be able to get in.

i have not seen anyone more abrasive or as crude as myself in 26 years of racing and i am able to get alon with every loser at the track

anybody with any comments can reach me at my office

that address is

I have to say that this is an awful post. Everyone who races with SB should be welcomed and made to feel at home. It doesn't matter if they are some hot-shot racer on their way up to F1, or some serious regional racer who races every weekend, or an occasional racer who is there only once or twice a year.

Statements like "if you think this is an old boys club there is somthing wrong with you not us" presume that there must be a 'club' otherwise who is the 'us'?

I have had an awful lot of fun in most of the races which I have be fortunate enough to race in. The ones which haven't been as much fun were when I was running alone on the track. I am confident in my abilities to race the car at a certain level. I would like to progress, but know that without more seat time this is not going to happen. So I race for the enjoyment of it, realizing that I'll most likely never be fast enough to win against all drivers, but that doesn't mean it's not fun for me. However, by your account I should leave SB because I am in it for the wrong reasons.

[chsutherland]

Apparently I don't have anything to do at work today.... I think you might be missing the humor in Sids post. Of course once you realize that Sid wears lingerie and sleeps with his doll you might feel better. I think Marv Albert was with Sid when he got arrested
cs

[rgreist]

Originally Posted by rf360m

I have to say that this is an awful post. Everyone who races with SB should be welcomed and made to feel at home. It doesn't matter if they are some hot-shot racer on their way up to F1, or some serious regional racer who races every weekend, or an occasional racer who is there only once or twice a year.

Statements like "if you think this is an old boys club there is somthing wrong with you not us" presume that there must be a 'club' otherwise who is the 'us'?

I have had an awful lot of fun in most of the races which I have be fortunate enough to race in. The ones which haven't been as much fun were when I was running alone on the track. I am confident in my abilities to race the car at a certain level. I would like to progress, but know that without more seat time this is not going to happen. So I race for the enjoyment of it, realizing that I'll most likely never be fast enough to win against all drivers, but that doesn't mean it's not fun for me. However, by your account I should leave SB because I am in it for the wrong reasons.

This is pretty much all tongue in cheek. Sort of.

Please don't take it personally. We've all learned not to do that. It's part of the tragicomic theater that is Skip Barber.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by ML Peter Ludwig

I like to consider myself the King of Jerks...

you go unchallenged Sire

Originally Posted by ML Peter Ludwig

I will be at Lime Rock in Koni this week....

Koni??? You poser, hoser dirtbag! Get wth the real race program!

[badgersid]

RUSSELL RUSSELL YOUR NOT GETTING IT.

REMOVE THE BROOMSTICK AND LOSSEN UP

I PROMISE IT WILL BE MUCH MORE FUN

[John Greist]

And now a few words from the one who really backed Bob Sweikert's '56 Kuzma to Freddie Agabashian's last run trying to qualify at INDY '58 - even at lawn mower speed, it was great.

What all have said is right - mostly. But the tougher side of the crowd is more right in racing and in life - if racing ain't full of life metaphors what is. As Davina said simply to a complainer worried about "safety" after Revere and I passed him on both sides in the rain, "It's called racing."

TJR has conveyed fact, fiction, tragedy, triumph and the appropriate emotions to a small, but welcoming group of close friends, tolerant of foibles to a fault. Beyond his addiction, TJR helped keep Peter in the game at a moment of pique. TJR members have tried to help SBR and have sometimes succeeded - return to the old groupings is a case in point. SBR like us, is pretty damn good, but both could be better - so we keep trying.

I've missed being with you this summer and won't be until the final midwest weekend at RA. The FCs are fun, fun, but very challenging to optimize as Revere described. Hell, it only took us four years to go flat through the Kink in the Formula Dodges and we're flat from turn 8 to Canada in the FCs, so we'll get it right soon.

What a great group to be a part of and how neat to communicate through TJR.

[GEORGE]

This is really a great thread. I am sure that at times it may seem mean, but in reality this is an escape. Racing is at times very mechanical and then it becomes completely mental. Every avenue is used to out race your opponant; even on this site. Hell if we weren't competitive, we wouldn't be here!

[ML Peter Ludwig]

Originally Posted by cdh

you go unchallenged Sire
Koni??? You poser, hoser dirtbag! Get wth the real race program!

Yeah baby!!

[ML Peter Ludwig]

Originally Posted by cdh

you go unchallenged Sire
Koni??? You poser, hoser dirtbag! Get wth the real race program!

That's what I'm talking about... I love when you talk dirty Doug, it's been too long.... I've been a bad boy. You should come over sometime, I'll let you wear Sids Pink lingerie or Matt Francs Goofy Mask, hell you might still fit in that Pink Bunny custom you left hanging in my closet a few years ago. I miss you, why don't you call anymore? Don't run from your feelings....we are who we are.

I went with Koni this year so I could tell my freinds I race a Porsche now, even though I suck in this car. As long as they (both of them) don't show up at the track I'll be OK I gather.

[rgreist]

Originally Posted by ML Peter Ludwig

I went with Koni this year so I could tell my freinds I race a Porsche now, even though I suck.

And it's a Porsche that looks like somebody "Ralfed" all over it. No pun intended!

Just kidding, buddy.

P.S. Got your message; I'll give you a call tomorrow!

[LimeRockRacer]

I used to think it was just Hazmat and Lug nuts that had some weird love fest thing going on...Now I realize that Sid is part of the menage a trois and that he likes younger men...

See what SBRS does to 'real men"

[LimeRockRacer]

Originally Posted by chsutherland

I agree that everyone was extremely kind when I started. However I didn't wait for people to approach me, I went right up and invited myself to dinner with them. I don't think I paid for any of those meals either. My thought is that if you show up in a BMW, Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche etc, you can buy my broke ass dinner.
cs

[ML Peter Ludwig]

Originally Posted by LimeRockRacer

I used to think it was just Hazmat and Lug nuts that had some weird love fest thing going on...Now I realize that Sid is part of the menage a trois and that he likes younger men...

See what SBRS does to 'real men"

Chris,
I have been trying to get a hold of you, you left that silver shiney bullet shaped thing in the Juicy Club House last month, should I mail it to you?? Just send your address.

BTW the batteries are toast

Hey cool place that menage a trois, I think I have a race in menage a trois this summer with Koni. That's in Quebec right? A German that lives in America racing in a spanish speaking country driving a Porsche, posing does not get any better then that!!

[motojoe]

Originally Posted by cdh

Hey Moto - just curious, were there other drivers you could race with or did you end up running alone/lapping? I hope you got into some good battles.

For me, the point of racing with better drivers is to get faster. Maybe I can win one someday, maybe not, doesn't mean I wont have fun and (hopefully) keep learning along the way.

Will you be at the Glen? Fun weekend, hope you're there.

I went off at 16 on Sat first lap, back out i did pass 2 cars (drove by)
after that was alone. Sun, going into turn 7 got punted into a 360 spin by an over anxious driver. No I wont be going to the glen, a place ive always wanted to race since seeing my first F1 race there in 1975, just not enough $ for that. However, I picked up a NASA license and have rented a ride at Summit Point in June in a Spec E30 BMW..will be my second go with that car. I recomend anyone trying
to get seat/race time to look into NASA as the rentals, (Miata, Cobra, Spec classes, etc.) are reasonable, espicially compared to SBR ( of course your on your own and it aint near as 'cool")...perhaps next year I will skip VIR for the Glen...have a great time..keep the brown side down

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by motojoe

I recomend anyone trying
to get seat/race time to look into NASA as the rentals, (Miata, Cobra, Spec classes, etc.) are reasonable, espicially compared to SBR ( of course your on your own and it aint near as 'cool")...perhaps next year I will skip VIR for the Glen...have a great time..keep the brown side down

Also consider, strongly, BSI Miatas. First class preparation, same great race tracks - Revere and I have done RA and Sebring with them - and exemplary coaching at certain venues with JP and Barry Waddell. For those who weren't around when they both were, it doesn't get better than them two. Lead-follow, right seat, nuanced coaching, and a load of fun with other drivers. Seat time almost unlimited at a friendly price. Not open wheel, but a great transition opportunity for those beginning and a fun refresher for fellow students further up the learning curve.