Changing SBRS Groups

[Kasey]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

George,
Trust me, there's plenty of unusual driving and weird cornering in Championship!

Yea, its often called blocking!

Racing with inexperienced drivers is not a big concern. The field is usually pre-sorted in qualifying. Friday practice with them however is another issue. It used to freak me out as a newbie when running with Champ guys during Friday practice. Seemed like every lap some "crazy bonzai maniac" would come blasting by me. They in fact were completely in control. I was just overwhelmed by how quickly they could negotiate the track relative to me.

[GEORGE]

I was just thinking of last falls race at LRP when I was passed going into turn one by the Panzer Attack. He passed me on the inside....GOING BACKWARDS!! In the grass!!
It didn't work out so well for him. although it was a novel approach. He hit the inside curb and sort of flew through the apex into another car. (Boy I bet he was surprised) This was a novel was to gain a position.
Maybe this should be a new thread about the most insane passes we have encountered.

[donv]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

Don-- what's this about not racing any more?? You had really gotten consistent for a while there. I enjoyed hanging out with you at the track. Hopefully the bug will come back.

Harsha, will miss you too and everyone else. I'm focusing on business, financial opportunities and risks right now and it is taking 100% of my focus. My clients, partners depend on me in tough times to steer the ship to safety and that is what I have been doing since late summer. The financial storm is intensifying so it will be all hands on deck for awhile.

I will be back at some point the passion is still there. I could show up at anytime you never know

[gman]

Go back to the old system.

The overall racing was great. Everyone had the chance to do well. You weren't totally screwed if someone crashed you and had to go in for a penalty. ALL the races were fun to watch - everyone would use scanners to follow the action. Everyone was racing together instead of two leagues w/in a league. Lapped traffic was a great dynamic to make things more interesting. There was more to do at the track when you weren't racing.

The point system will reward the appropriate people at the end of the season regardless. The old system seemed to reward the drivers who put in there time and were dedicated to becoming better drivers. There is a broad enough distribution of skill at every weekend to make the racing exciting throughout multiple fields.

The trophies etc. should go to the fastest drivers and not to the "sand baggers" who are capable but don't want to move up b/c they won't podium as much, if at all for some time to come.

[Juicyfan]

As always, it's great to hear from you Sid, I miss your witty sarcasm. Everyone's so serious outside of Skip Barber...I say we put Skippy races on T.V. and bring everyone from all forms of motor racing to a memorial.

Also, we scrap trophies and put the money that would have been spent on trophies towards the Mechanics Fund! How's that, Sid?

[grady192]

Like Pat said, you will probably prefer the system you started with. I'm glad I started with the current system but can't understand why someone would want to stay in sportsman just to get on podium. I got my first podium this year at LRP but it was a sportsman podium. Kind of like winning the special olympics. I know there is a whole other level and crave the day I'm fast enough to run there. I thought I would just be in the way if put in the champ class but now fast enough to overtake slower folk without inconvenience, I'm sure the champ guys can negotiate their way around me with the same ease.
As far as camaraderie goes I can see the benefit of the old system. It would definitely mix things up a bit and allow more interaction among drivers.

[badgersid]

JOHN nice to hear from a clear thinking person every now and than.but that i mean someone that agrees with me.

what are you up to this year and when will i see you

say hi too dad for me.

sid

[cdh]

Well, it seems that the 2008 summer series will be running with one group, no more Sportsman.

I think this is a good thing and I believe everyone will like it. Running Champ last year was not the same as it used to be, there were not enough of the medium speed drivers like myself (with many of them in Sportsman). Having everyone race together and with a good mix in each race, I believe there will be better racing for everyone.

In the days before Sportsman, SB would often make one group (or more) of Sportsman level drivers with a few mid and top level drivers thrown in, they will hopefully continue this practice giving many a shot at top spots. The groups should all be a varied mix with good battles in the front, middle and back of the fields.

I for one am happy about it, I think many will agree once the racing begins.

[Tireman]

Originally Posted by cdh

Well, it seems that the 2008 summer series will be running with one group, no more Sportsman.

I just spoke to Earle, my sales rep, and he said Kerry and Kelly just told him that no change is in the works. Both Regions (East and Midwest) will still have their respective Sportsman and Champion groups. Perhaps there was confusion over the fact there were so many combined East/Midwest venue dates ?

Viz

[cdh]

Hmmmmmm, could be I misunderstood, will check.

[John Greist]

While the sample size was small (N = 27), the vote in favor of changing to the old format was 80% in favor of making the change, so it's striking if the decision was not to change.

Still, we should thank Matt for raising the issue again. 80% of TJR voters say it's the right thing to do and for many different reasons, but that must not be enough.

Perhaps Matt will let us know what factors led to the decision not to make the change.

[cdh]

It's back to the one group format, confirmed

[donv]

Originally Posted by cdh

It's back to the one group format, confirmed

That's good news should make for better weekends in many ways. If nothing else it sparks my interest in SBRS a little.

donv

[Rossfeld]

Forgive me, I haven't been to a Skippy weekend since 2002, but does 'one group' mean what it says? Ie everyone in the same session, and a big grid, like a 'real' race?

I only ever did the old system and because it's all I've seen it's the one I liked. Like Papa Greist said you really felt like you had earned it when that magic moment came that you put a pass on someone and realised there was no one else to pass, and that's when the really hard bit began. All the more so when you did it on someone who had their act together.

The flip side of that is I still maintain one of the best pieces of autoracing I have seen in any series, ever; was one back in 01 or 02 at RA full course when they literally put all the rookies together in a single group. There was a pile of us in the grandstands at Turn 5 that morning waiting to see who the lucky SOB was that was going to win in their first start. They were like a shoal of fish, moving independently but learning as a group. Fascinating, amusing, and scary at the same time.

[cdh]

It is returning to the way you remember it, one series might be a better way of saying it, different race groups all at the Championship level.

It would certainly be fun to have everyone race at the same time, that is if there were that many cars.

Same as it ever was.

[LimeRockRacer]

I think going back to the old system is the best solution to cure some of the ills of split groups based on the number of attendees of late. Drivers of all abilities will race with each other given everyone a chance to have fun and battle with someone of their own ability.

Rf, there will be multiple groups on a weekend but all comprised of a handful of drivers from each ability level. Unfortunately there generally are not enough cars to put everyone on the grid at the same time. In my mind if we could do that that would be an awesome experience.

[OLDMAN]

Not everyone has the resources to get enough seat time to be competitive with the regulars. Before the two group format on more than one occasion I had the pleasure of being blasted after a race because I did not get out of the way fast enough for one of the leaders to lap me.

Years ago, in my boat racing days, everyone decided which fleet to compete in, "A", "B" or "C". As soon as you won a race in "C" fleet you had to move up to "B". As soon as you won a race in "B" fleet you had to move up to "A". Everyone was required to stay at that level for the remainder of the current season as well as all of the next season. The system worked very well.

If SBRS is going to again require racers with no seat time to take on the likes of RHR and Marco their business will suffer. I can tell you from personal experience it is not fun taking on "top shelf" talent when you have only 2 hours of seat time in the last 12 months. You start in the back and you stay in the back.

Almost everyone at SBRS is a former racer. They view the business from that perspective. A true business person would view it as a business and try to maximize attendance. If I have to show up at MT this summer and compete against guys 4 seconds a lap faster, I will probably spend my ever dwindling "mad money" someplace else.

Just my $0.02 worth.

OLDMAN

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by cdh

It's back to the one group format, confirmed

Hooray! (that message was too short) Hooray again!

[cdh]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

If I have to show up at MT this summer and compete against guys 4 seconds a lap faster, I will probably spend my ever dwindling "mad money" someplace else.
Just my $0.02 worth - OLDMAN

Where? Are there other series you can run and be more competitive? Or are you saying you wont race cars? That would be a shame. All series have their hot shoes who are going to be faster than you or me. Do you get feedback and coaching in other series? I still see SBRS as the best deal, all series are very competitive, what is the objective of our racing?

As long as I am racing with others at/near my level, I am gonna have fun. If I am challenged by faster drivers and I can learn from them, so much the better. This will happen much more with the old system restored. Personally I would rather race mid-pack in Champ with lots of passing-repassing than I would lapping alone in P2 in a Sportsman race (which happened a couple times, no hope of P1, P3 was not in my mirrors). I gotta believe the same applies to you Oldman, don't sell yourself short, and the Masters Championship offers more opportunities to do well. Hope to see you at Tremblant Bob!

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

Almost everyone at SBRS is a former racer....

almost being the critical word

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by cdh

It's back to the one group format, confirmed

Having only raced in the new system, I'm looking forward to the change. Should be more fun: bigger groups, more mixing it up in the midfield and back of the pack as well. Don't throw in the towel, Oldman-- give it a shot--you may be surprised. MOST of us have to deal with guys being gobs quicker than us-- it's just part of it.

[OLDMAN]

Hey Doug:
I'm not knocking SBRS. They have the best of everything - they go to the best tracks, they have the best instruction and the cars are top shelf (I think). All I'm saying is that for guys like me for my $4,500 per weekend I don't want to just ride around in the back. I want to be with 14 to 18 guys who run about as fast (or slow) as I do. It's not about trophies or points, it's about racing.

Last year at MT there was a bunch of kids (some of whom had run Formula BMW prior to Skip) who considered guys like me pathetic. They got there on Monday and had been running all week. By the time I got there on Friday I had nothing for them. I really don't want to run with those guys, nor do they want to run with guys like me.

I'm 61 years old and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to Indy. I just want to show up now and then and be competitive. If that is not possible, I will spend my extra money on other forms of entertainment. Should I win Lotto that's a different story.

OLDMAN

[cdh]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

Hey Doug:
I'm not knocking SBRS. They have the best of everything - they go to the best tracks, they have the best instruction and the cars are top shelf (I think). All I'm saying is that for guys like me for my $4,500 per weekend I don't want to just ride around in the back. I want to be with 14 to 18 guys who run about as fast (or slow) as I do. It's not about trophies or points, it's about racing.

Last year at MT there was a bunch of kids (some of whom had run Formula BMW prior to Skip) who considered guys like me pathetic. They got there on Monday and had been running all week. By the time I got there on Friday I had nothing for them. I really don't want to run with those guys, nor do they want to run with guys like me.

I'm 61 years old and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to Indy. I just want to show up now and then and be competitive. If that is not possible, I will spend my extra money on other forms of entertainment. Should I win Lotto that's a different story.

OLDMAN

I know Bob, and those same kids mopped the floor with me too, so what? As you said, I aint going to Indy either. As I said, gimme some good battles, front, middle or back and I am having fun. Gimme a group with only a couple of the really fast guys, let them take each other out and what do ya know? I got a shot. I don't think it is all that gloomy. You can end up with a lapping session in any race, any group. I think the odds of that happening decrease with a better mix in the groups.............done, I can't keep saying the same thing.

This is a hobby, I consider a clean weekend where I get consistently faster every session a victory of sorts, a success. Podia are tough to get, they should be. Another step in the ladder. Very tough when you have one weekend a year, I understand where you're coming from also. See ya at GPNY soon ok?

[jeffrey Pietz]

Never having run anything but Sportsman in the regionals I will be interested in the new system. As long as there are some folks close to me on the grid I think it will be fun. It will be interesting if we Sportsman guys get any better any faster in the return to the old one class system.

[dalyduo]

Change is good.

Some of us will be humbled and others emboldened by the change.

The vast majority of those who ran it before, including the instructors, say it worked well. No reason it can't work well again.

The only complaints I ever recall hearing were those who found themselves without anyone to run with and had a very expensive lapping day type race but that can happen in any grouping so I'm not sure the one tier system can take the blame.

It certainly gives Todd and Kelly more options in terms of mixing and matching people and it also gives them the option of creating larger fields.

[BlackFireACR]

clubbing baby seals is only fun once or twice...

I had more fun and learned more in my champ races I jumped in to at LRP after giving up my sportsman pole even though racing was racing and the finishes were awlful

boo to anyone who stayed in sportsman just to finish higher or look better. definetly missed out on a chance to better your self...



as far as running larger fields: can skippy maintain a sufficient car count? that is the question...

[cdh]

OK, VIR complete with the return of the single group format.

Pros ? ______ Cons ?

[robbyracenut]

Pros of the current group system: it does give you something to shoot for, even if you're way off the pace of the quickest guys. There's nothing to hide behind, so if you want to get podium finishes you have to put in the time and effort to develop yourself.

Cons of the current system: Closing speeds. During practice the closing speeds between the rookie drivers and the veterans/former karters are absurd. I said this in another thread, but the quick guys need to be a bit more aware of the fact that not everyone is going to be cool with being passed in the esses. The other con is that there is no way someone like me (who has to work a job and save up to go racing) is going to be able to get the seat time to catch up and ever secure a podium in this system. While there is great motivation to get better, there isn't really any hope of getting good enough. That sort of kills it.

[tom goodhart]

I think I can pretty much vouch for everything Robby stated here. After a 4 year layoff from doing race weekends, I'm pretty rusty, so I wound up in the bottom third of my group. Even though right now a podium is out of the question, ultimately I think the single group format is a better system and I will value whatever result I get much more and can compare it similarly to the guys winning.
The one thing I will say mirrors one of Robby's comments. The really quick young guys need to display a little more courtesy, they are obviously fast enough to pass wherever they choose, but they need to allow a little more room for the driver being overtaken. I had my nose chopped more times than I care to admit.
Other notes from VIR - anyone who hasn't tried the "lead follow" must try it, its fabulous. I had my first LF session with Rob and he helped me immensely.
The track is simply amazing, especially the esses.
The people running the track - very friendly.
All in all a great weekend.