Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): Russell new cars?

[donv]

Well, i will now have to check on my D/P it may be only $1000 in any event it doesn't change the issue of risk.

I wonder if SBRS is even carrying these D/P's as a liability on their books, it should be of course but who knows they may have booked them as a sale to hide them and make sales appear higher? Quite common practice when dressing up a pig for sale.

I usually pay for race weekends about 2-3 days prior maybe best to pay COD from now on.

We all discussed the price increase recently and the opposite effect it may have vs what they thought would happen. They hoped for increased revenues but may be getting cancellations. It all seems so obvious with the effects of years of bad management coming home to roost. Can anyone make sense of raising prices while laying off or firing employees to cut expenses. It would seem impossible that anyone in business would use the logic that, "sales are slowing dramatically so let's raise prices and maybe it will boost sales"

we should all call tomorrow and demand our D/P's back, would this not prompt management to address customer concerns and an honest dialog or would they predictably deny anything is wrong and hide under their desks?

[dalyduo]

I wouldn't get too hot and bothered about it Robby...

How many active racers can there be? 100? 150? Based on $1,000 per deposit we're only talking about $150,000 and that amount isn't going to make or break the company in any regard. I don't think it's a legitimate issue.

Housecleaning to improve the balance sheet isn't designed to default the company by killing its brand name value stiffing customers of their deposits. They'll make more money holding the float on our deposits and raising prices for the same services until a buyer comes along. If they throw the entire value of this unique asset down the toilet they get nothing. Some think they're going down that road anyway but none of us really know what they're thinking or what their strategy is.

Don raises some legitimate questions but I doubt if demanding deposits back is going to produce the desired effect. All it will do is create a mound of paperwork for an already overworked under-staffed office crew.

[donv]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

I wouldn't get too hot and bothered about it Robby...

Housecleaning to improve the balance sheet isn't designed to default the company by killing its brand name value stiffing customers of their deposits. They'll make more money holding the float on our deposits and raising prices for the same services until a buyer comes along. If they throw the entire value of this unique asset down the toilet they get nothing.

well i guess i agree, but that is assuming they really know what they are doing. Also i'm not sure raising prices was smart no matter what the motivation was, i think it may effect sales much more than they expect which is probaly not at all...we will see come Nov and Atlanta, that is always a 80+ sold out weekend

[wbs]

I think Don may have a point, but I think it's a bit extreme to worry about our deposits, I mean, even when you pump and dump, you are still dumping with all the liabilities, i.e., race deposits.

Speaking of which, I think mine was 1K also, although my memory is getting fuzzy, and I would sure like to get back 2.5K.

In any case, I hope that this thread is getting some kind of message through to management. Anyone else planning on attending the October end of series dinner at Lime Rock?

[robbyracenut]

True about the brand name impact of stiffing customers, but I'm still slightly worried... Maybe I'm just used to dealing with sleazy gov't contractors (I feel like I need to take a shower to get the slime off me after some of these meetings), but there are two things that are particularly nerve wracking to me. First is the fact that it would be quite easy for the management (acting through the SSAs) to tie up the deposits in red tape/delayed contact for quite some time. Given the fact that very few of us can walk in to the corporate headquarters and actually talk to someone in person, this delay/obstruction becomes even easier to execute. Again, maybe this tactic is something that Skip Barber wouldn't resort to, but I don't have enough of a track record with them to know. Other people on this board may want to correct me on this. The second thing bothering me is that Skip Barber is a high capital/low margin endeavor to start with. Further, the capital it is dependent on is highly depreciative and requires fairly constant investment either in employee man hours or liability outlay to maintain. A model like this works just fine when you've got a steady net inflow and an established customer base, but if they are trying to raise revenue by raising prices (which I think we all agree they are) the evidence seems to point to a weak revenue stream. If that is the case, I wouldn't want to be the executive in charge of finding new investors with the cash to backstop the redevelopment of a customer base and modified business model, keeping in mind that even once this is done the margins will be relatively low.

On a personal note, I'd be ecstatic if all of this is needless worrying and I get to race in a Skippy car (sooner rather than later). I'm just saying that a more conservative approach with regards to prepaying is warranted. Oh, and doing that is actually good for Skip Barber as well. Assuming they last long enough to hold the events we all want to attend which seems likely, receiving the full payment for the non-discounted price of the event at the time of the event will have a greater positive impact on Skip Barber in the long run than a discounted pre-pay will. Everyone can win if short term business practices are avoided.

[donv]

Originally Posted by wbs

I think Don may have a point, but I think it's a bit extreme to worry about our deposits, I mean, even when you pump and dump, you are still dumping with all the liabilities, i.e., race deposits.

Speaking of which, I think mine was 1K also, although my memory is getting fuzzy, and I would sure like to get back 2.5K.

In any case, I hope that this thread is getting some kind of message through to management. Anyone else planning on attending the October end of series dinner at Lime Rock?

if it ends up an "asset sale" which is likely if there is lots of debt then the D/P's will likely go to heaven. It is also possible that certain liabilities become part of the asset sale but i would not want to be a holder of SBRS unsecured debt right now.

And your right I wouldn't let any of this stuff effect decisions to race with SBRS, worst case is a $1000-2500 D/P loss and very remotely the pre payment of a race weekend.

On the positive side all these problems may finally lead to significant changes for the better or a new owner who appreciates the loyal passionate customers and instructors/employees who really make the weekends work.

[donv]

Roby, you make some good points but the reality is if they want to screw us out of the D/P's voluntarily or involuntarily there is little we can do as it is an unsecured debt anyway. In a small biz it gets real simple, if there is no cash to pay all you can do is sue and what's the point of that if there is no cash?

BTW I am one of those sleazy government contractors, not all are the same you know, and i could tell you some stories about the other side too))

[wbs]

Originally Posted by donv

i would not want to be a holder of SBRS unsecured debt right now.

You're on the trading side, and I couldn't agree with you more; I'm on the legal side, and, should it come to that (that = Chapter 7), I think we'd have to look at where those deposits went. Deposits can have a certain status at law. Anyways, I am sure we are getting a bit carried away here ... I hope.

[robbyracenut]

Originally Posted by donv

Roby, you make some good points but the reality is if they want to screw us out of the D/P's voluntarily or involuntarily there is little we can do as it is an unsecured debt anyway. In a small biz it gets real simple, if there is no cash to pay all you can do is sue and what's the point of that if there is no cash?

BTW I am one of those sleazy government contractors, not all are the same you know, and i could tell you some stories about the other side too))

Momentarily hijacking this one... I didn't mean to imply that they're all slimy, just the ones that I get to deal with, but I guess that is my job after all. I'd also have to agree that the "other side" is just as bad sometimes... I and many of my colleagues owe the openings that led to our jobs to a "staff realignment" in the wake of some interesting GAO/GSA findings about State programs.

[donv]

Originally Posted by robbyracenut

Momentarily hijacking this one... I didn't mean to imply that they're all slimy, just the ones that I get to deal with, but I guess that is my job after all. I'd also have to agree that the "other side" is just as bad sometimes... I and many of my colleagues owe the openings that led to our jobs to a "staff realignment" in the wake of some interesting GAO/GSA findings about State programs.

No problem buddy, I'm not a full time govt contractor anyway but i have done many of those jobs over the years. In addition I am no longer involved in day to day operations of the company. I moved from Miami to Jackson Hole 14 years ago and took a part time trading biz full time to run some OPM along with my own. The Internet coming mainstream was certainly perfect timing for me, nothing like going to work in socks with a view of the mountains out the window and only a few steps from the bedroom. Of course the downside is having to fly all day to race but there is always a price to pay.

[dalyduo]

The fact that this discussion is being held at all says more about the poor communication skills of top management than a real threat that the sky is falling.

Robby, these are not government contractors... sleazy or otherwise... (Sorry Don ) they're wealthy business school graduates with multiple investments concerned with flipping this investment and making a profit. They may not have the same passion as we do for racing but they do have a passion for being successful and maintaining their good standing in the business community. You never know but I'd be surprised if they dump their asset.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

they're wealthy business school graduates with multiple investments concerned with flipping this investment and making a profit. They may not have the same passion as we do for racing but they do have a passion for being successful and maintaining their good standing in the business community. You never know but I'd be surprised if they dump their asset.

Not on purpose, anyway. But the two Dons, Van and Sauza, taught me the meaning of "hubris" this weekend...

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by donv

I wonder if SBRS is even carrying these D/P's as a liability on their books, it should be of course but who knows they may have booked them as a sale to hide them and make sales appear higher? Quite common practice when dressing up a pig for sale.

Decided to look mine up. On my Driver History Report, the first "Event" is the Series Deposit, listed under the category "Event" as "SB Other," a random "date" of 01/01/2000 (which is not real since my first Skip event was 9/13/05), Location "Other," Cost "1.000.00," Status "Reserved." No last minute housecleaning or "dressing up" here, looks like they booked it as a sale from the start. Smart.

we should all call tomorrow and demand our D/P's back, would this not prompt management to address customer concerns and an honest dialog or would they predictably deny anything is wrong and hide under their desks?

doubt that would accomplish anything, Don. On the other hand, we could write an open letter to Aaron signed by members of this community who wish to sign asking for open dialogue about the status and direction of the company, or deputize some members who live in the area to pay a visit to leadership to ask the questions and report back. Do something proactive. That way, no matter how they respond or what the result, we have info rather than only speculation.

What say all of you?

[cheekychica]

Originally Posted by LimeRockRacer

I had heard it was a "round of layoffs"...

Geb was one of three people laid off, all from different departments (I believe). Cost cutting at its finest...

[donv]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

On the other hand, we could write an open letter to Aaron signed by members of this community who wish to sign asking for open dialog about the status and direction of the company, or deputize some members who live in the area to pay a visit to leadership to ask the questions and report back. Do something proactive. That way, no matter how they respond or what the result, we have info rather than only speculation.

What say all of you?

well i would go along with anything but i doubt an open letter would do much, it can be ignored and have no effect. If we ask for Deposits, first off it reduces our risk and sends a message we know you have no clothes and sticks them in the pocket book where it really hurts.

Couldn't be me to deputize i would likely make things worse by asking Q&A they would not want to hear.

I wish i was 20 younger and had some risk capital to blow, i would make them an offer and run this bloated pig myself after trimming it down to a lean mean machine with pro marketing people...but alas my days of this stuff have ended, I'm too fat and happy now.

[Duc998M]

Originally Posted by donv

I wish i was 20 younger and had some risk capital to blow, i would make them an offer and run this bloated pig myself after trimming it down to a lean mean machine with pro marketing people...but alas my days of this stuff have ended, I'm too fat and happy now.

Don,

I do not think your fat. Matter of fact the skippy driving suits are quite slimming on you.

What about getting a bunch of people to buy shares then get someone to run it? Of course, there is always a problem when the largest customer buys a company.

I am not really all that worried. From what i understand SB has been on the financial fence for decades.

Marc

[dalyduo]

Bingo! The official long lasting all encompassing corporate tune.

Originally Posted by Duc998M

From what i understand SB has been on the financial fence for decades.

Marc

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by donv

I wish i was 20 younger and had some risk capital to blow, i would make them an offer and run this bloated pig myself after trimming it down to a lean mean machine with pro marketing people...but alas my days of this stuff have ended, I'm too fat and happy now.

Makes me remember one of my favorite scenes from one of my favorite movies, The Untouchables, with Kevin Costner as Eliot Ness and Sean Connery as Jim Malone:

Ness:
- l need a small group of men, handpicked, starting with you.

Malone:
- Ness! l am just a poor beat cop.
- Now, how can l help you?

Ness:
- Just work with me.

Malone:
- But why should l, though?

Ness:
- Because you're a good cop.

Malone:
- How do you know that?

Ness:
- You told me.

Malone:
- lf l'm such a good cop... How come l'm walkin' the beat, then, at my age?

Ness:
- Do you want to tell me?

Malone:
- Well, maybe l'm that Whore with a Heart of Gold. Or The One Good Cop in the Bad Town? ls that what you want to hear?.

Ness:
- l didn't ask you, and l don't care! You want to stay on the beat? You do that. lf you'd like to come with me, l need your help.

l'm askin' you for help.


Malone:
- Well...that's the thing you fear, isn't it?

- Mr Ness, l wish l'd met you ten years and...twenty pounds ago. But...l just think it got...more important to me... ..to stay alive.

- And that's why l'm walkin' the beat. Thank you, no.

You make a great Malone, Don, ol' pal. But who's gonna play Ness in this real-life drama?

[John Greist]

My crash deposit has been $1,000 - lots less than some crash deposits I've made. I think the crash deposit is the only thing at SBR that's not increased over the years.

We've been through two ownership changes and we're still racing. The groups are full or nearly so (VIR = 55, WG 65, RA 80, MT 76 and MO 53 - some of us remember weekends with 20 in the real doldrums), and SBR increases prices more than inflation every year. So unless owners are supporting other expensive and illegal habits, SBR should keep going.

Certainly mistakes have been made and there are definitely ways SBR can improve, but I'm leaving my crash deposit where it has been for the last 13 years.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by John Greist

but I'm leaving my crash deposit where it has been for the last 13 years.

me too. uh, two years.

[rbuetzer]

Originally Posted by John Greist

My crash deposit has been $1,000 - lots less than some crash deposits I've made. I think the crash deposit is the only thing at SBR that's not increased over the years.

We've been through two ownership changes and we're still racing. The groups are full or nearly so (VIR = 55, WG 65, RA 80, MT 76 and MO 53 - some of us remember weekends with 20 in the real doldrums), and SBR increases prices more than inflation every year. So unless owners are supporting other expensive and illegal habits, SBR should keep going.

Certainly mistakes have been made and there are definitely ways SBR can improve, but I'm leaving my crash deposit where it has been for the last 13 years.

Thanks for the moral boost John!!
Reading some of the opinions is somewhat depressing. I’m running my first race at Laguna in December, and hate hearing about all the problems/troubles before I even start!! I’m looking forward to running all next year!

But hey…. aren’t group forums created to give people a chance to express their concerns, complaints, anger outburst, with the occasional praise of the organization.

Maybe I should stop reading the forums until after my first race. I’ll be able to voice my 2 cents with a little more credibility

-Ryan

[John Greist]

TJR is the best communication medium for SBR and I'm sure it's read avidly, though not always with pleasure, and SBR is the better for it.

No worry about folks expressing their beliefs, thoughts, feelings, delusions, to everyones' benefit.

First amendment all the way!

[WatertownNewbie]

Originally Posted by John Greist

TJR is the best communication medium for SBR and I'm sure it's read avidly, though not always with pleasure, ....

My guess is that any potential buyer of the business who is doing any intelligent due diligence would be reading these postings too.

[LimeRockRacer]

For those that were not at Mid O last week...Make sure you are prepared to sign a "pre-authorization" to charge whatever credit card you give them or have on file as a pre-requesite to getting in a car. This was a new form that was sprung on us this past weekend.

Apparently, as explained by those advised to deliver the message to us, there have been a number of deadbeats stiffing the Series for extra charges incurred over the weekends for things like extra practice, lead follows, radio coaching etc. So what better way to insure you've been paid on time for charges incurred? ...Make your most loyal and dedicated prompt paying customers sign carte blanche ahead of time!

I witnessed at least one prompt paying loyalist willing to get an early flight home on the principal of how poorly this was handled. Once again if the problem is really the few poor pays, then go after them, not your most loyal supporters.

Fence or no fence, sale or no sale, there have been an unprecedented number of poorly executed financial and operational decisions made recently that indicate decision makers in distress. What the distress is, is unclear to me.

For those of you new to the series, I must add that we have an unbeleivable amount of fun at our weekends. The Instructors, mechanics and support staff are unquestionably the best. The competition is great and racing unsurpassed for all of our disdain of late. Damn it all, it is still the best bang for the buck. Unfortunately there are fewer and fewer of us willing to pay and put up...our eastern series champ group at Mid-O was mostly mid-western doubles. Take a look at the real number of drivers attending the weekend. Someone with some nuts and brains needs to grab the reins soon.

[PT Cruiser]

I think the normal deposit is $1000, but goes up if you are put on AP.

Which I guess means that Don has been crashing too much lately!

[donv]

Originally Posted by PT Cruiser

I think the normal deposit is $1000, but goes up if you are put on AP.

Which I guess means that Don has been crashing too much lately!

No, i think mine is probably $1000, will have to check on Monday. Knock on wood not $1 of crash damage this season, of course still have the final weekend and memorial to go. Now last year was different, i don't think i made it through any weekend without a crash and many had two, i was pretty much ready to quit by seasons end and go back into retirement. If for no other reason than racing clean, this season will have been a success, a dramatic improvement over last year thanks to many folks who helped me this year.

[robbyracenut]

In the interest of fairness and giving credit where credit is due... I spoke with my SSA today and in one 5 minute phone call had the process started to get my deposit refunded to the card used to charge it. I guess my fears about a willfull obstruction of the deposit return process were unfounded. Oh well... Hopefully they're just going to get it right back in a bit. Racing is more important than money afterall, right?

[wbs]

Hey y'all, just got back from Lime Rock where I went karting, and got to meet Pat Daly Duo and Sydude Aryehdude, after knowing them so well from their posts. A really fun time. Figured since hijacking threads is the name of the game, I thought I'd try to get us out of this funk about the future of Skippy.

Hope to see and meet more of you at the Englishtown karting races in New Jersey on October 20-21 if not before then at the Lime Rock SBRS Eastern Regional finale!

[dalyduo]

Great meeting and hanging out with you Bill. Good people always seem to find other good people to play with. Johan and Karen do such a great job creating a healthy, fun and competitive environment in which to race. Good group and so much fun.

Originally Posted by wbs

Hey y'all, just got back from Lime Rock where I went karting, and got to meet Pat Daly Duo and Sydude Aryehdude, after knowing them so well from their posts. A really fun time. Figured since hijacking threads is the name of the game, I thought I'd try to get us out of this funk about the future of Skippy.

[jdehnert]

Originally Posted by cdh

Hey Chris, Are all the races in the Formula Russell?

The Formula Russell, as sown is basically a Star Mazda with different body work. Those are the cars that are used for the race series. (up until now anyway)

The Formula Mitsubishi's are user for the intro classes, and other events.

[jdehnert]

Greetings Guys (and Gals as the case may be),

I am a long time Russell Racer and I ran across this board as I was looking to see if the new Russell owners have done any marketing, at all, based on the new cars. It seems that the answer is big, not so far.

I do have some info I'd like to pass on since the new car was unveiled recently.

I was not able to attend myself, but some close friends and co-racers did attend. The car is pretty much what was shown before. It's an all carbon F3 chassis.

They hope to bring young kids up through there ranks, that will be there main focus.

To race with there in there cars will cost $82k plus another $3k for practice days so about $110k for 8 weekends.

They have not determined what there are actually going to do about crash damage.

There will be two classes/categories of drivers
Championship Series - 15 to 29
Masters Series - 30 to 65

There is a limit to the number of competitors for each class. 20 for each.

It is necessary to sign up for a whole season. A whole season being 8 weekends (16 races)

Each class will race one race per race day.

A set of prizes are awarded to both classes
First prize is a whole season
Second prize is 1/2 season
Third prize is 1 race weekend.

The fleet of cars are supposed to be ready by the end of Nov. 2007

The engine is a Mitsubishi Evo with an estimated 300 HP.

The general reaction from my fellow Russell Vets is pretty much what you would expect. The car is cool, there is no denying that, but it's not THAT cool. Several of us have purchased Pro or Star Mazdas. I am going the F-1000 route with a Stohr f-1000 myself.

The new owners have been tight lipped about the plans all year. They changed the awards given at the year end annual for the top finishers ( think worse, not better) and they have generally managed to alienate most of the existing client base, or at last the ones I am in contact with anyway.

They seem to be in bed with Audi on the side as they have been doing a number of "Audi Experience" events. While it's nice to see the R8's going around the track, unfortunately they have done things like booking the AE on the same day as a pre race lapping day, and shortening the lapping time available to us racers, but with no compensation for the change.

The new owners seem nice enough, but the general consensus is that they just don't have much interest in the existing base of racers, or if they do, they just have no idea how to market to them.

Thanks,
James "Zeke" Dehnert

[PT Cruiser]

Originally Posted by jdehnert

The general reaction from my fellow Russell Vets is pretty much what you would expect. The car is cool, there is no denying that, but it's not THAT cool. Several of us have purchased Pro or Star Mazdas. I am going the F-1000 route with a Stohr f-1000 myself.

James,

Thanks for the inside line on the recent changes at the Russell school/race series.

I'm sorry to hear that the recent ownership change at Russell does not seem to be serving their traditional client base well. If you've looked around the team juicy site, you'll have seen that SBRS's management doesn't always delight the race series faithful, either. . . so you certainly have our sympathy. Fortunately for us, SBRS's management hasn't totally lost their marbles, while you make a pretty strong case that the Russell school has done just that.

Hopefully, your comments above will serve as a cautionary tale to SBRS's brain trust as they ponder options for their own planned fleet upgrade.

Sounds like you are planning to go the ownership route (F-1000), but if you still want to do the occasional arrive and drive weekend, consider giving Skip a try. The instructors are top notch, the weekends are well run, you can choose from a huge variety of tracks, and the competition ranges from strong (regional champ groups) to outright fierce (the national series).

[dalyduo]

Welcome James,

I'll second Peter's suggestion that you and your friends might want to sample a Skip Barber race weekend and see how it compares with the Russel experience. The cars are old school to be sure but we've found it more important that they be equal than cutting edge. The instruction and camaraderie is at least as important to most of us as the competition... And the competition is great.

[jdehnert]

Thanks for the warm welcome.

I have already purchased an F-1000 so I will be running SCCA next year. I did think quite seriously about running with Skippy, but I had seeded the idea of buying an F-1000 from the beginning of the 2007 season, so the "Fall of Russell Racing" was just the push I needed to pull the trigger.

WGT the Barber management getting the cautionary tale, I expect they won't. The new Russell owners have been quietly listening to all of the "feedback" from us regulars since they took ownership. They have even been subscribed to some of the mailing lists that we have all been discussing the state of affairs on.

The thing that I find funny is the fact that at Skippy and Russell there are boatloads of successful business people, but the management (at Russell at least) just doesn't seem to think that anyone knows anything about running a business.

I suppose we will all know if Russells new plan has any merit over over the new year. While I am disappointed by how things are turning out, I do wish them the best of luck. I can appreciate what they are trying to do, but I think they could have found a way to move forward without severing all the ties to the past.

IMHO, if a $110K/year arrive and drive was a viable plan, the new Russell management would be pushing the new cars and bragging about the hot new talent thats already been signed up.

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by jdehnert

...$110K/year arrive and drive ...the hot new talent thats already been signed up.

Sounds like they need affluent new talent, not hot.

[jeffrey Pietz]

After reading all this I checked with Russell to verify the prices. No offence guys but I just found those numbers hard to believe. Their 2007 web site with all their old pricing will soon be coming down. The 82 K and 110K are correct. They are only taking reservations from people who will sign for the whole season. After that they will accept reservations for one offs. They claim they have already filled half their seats. All this sounds like that arrive and drive program in the UK. Much more expensive hardware, much higher prices. For 110K one could buy a very fine continental and race it (arrive and drive) for the season and own the car at the end of that season.

Even with a good crash damge deductible it looks like arriving and driving your own car becomes more attractive than Russell. Russell has not made their CDR sytem clear yet. All that carbon fibre may make that a problem for them. If they don't come up with a good number on that they really lose me and, I suspect, many others.

The moral of all this for me is to be prepared for change. The Russell changes are seismic. The same could happen at SBR. If not massive price changes then something else. I will continue to run SBR for the coming year but I also intend to keep exploring other options in anticipation of the day when something radically changes.

I do , however, plan on complaining less loudly about SBR prices. As a way to waste money Skippy still looks relatively reasonable.

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by jeffrey Pietz

As a way to waste money Skippy still looks relatively reasonable.

I agree violently. SBR is the best value in wasting money. The $35 SBR trophy for say, $35K, is much better than a Russell $35 trophy for $110K.

[cooleyjb]

If you look at the cars that are comparable to the new Russell car, the costs aren't that out of line. FBMW, Star Mazda, etc. are all in a much higher cost bracket. FBMW and Mazda don't have trouble getting cars to the gird with the costs associated with those series.

Russell has made the choice to compete in the market that FBMW and Star Mazda are in. They might believe that they can better compete against those series than they can against Skip Barber. Skip Barber has a choice in the future to stay in the same general price bracket they are in, or step up and compete with the 3 other open wheel series. Hopefully they won't step up to the higher bracket and keep the entry level series into open wheel remain 'relatively' cheap.

As for the Stohr F1000, that is a pretty car. I've had the chance to race against one in my FC a couple of times this year. The car looks good, has lots of power and looks like a dream to drive.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by John Greist

I agree violently. SBR is the best value in wasting money. The $35 SBR trophy for say, $35K, is much better than a Russell $35 trophy for $110K.

I heard with the new Chinese supplier, they got the trophies down to under 20 bucks. Just don't lick them.

[jdehnert]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

I heard with the new Chinese supplier, they got the trophies down to under 20 bucks. Just don't lick them.

The new owners switched to medals, which I bet cost all of $5 each. For those of us who have plenty of coin holders already it was no big deal, but we did feel disappointed for the new folks. It is nice when they hand you a trophy (even a toxic Chinese one).

[jdehnert]

Originally Posted by cooleyjb

If you look at the cars that are comparable to the new Russell car, the costs aren't that out of line. FBMW, Star Mazda, etc. are all in a much higher cost bracket. FBMW and Mazda don't have trouble getting cars to the gird with the costs associated with those series.

I believe that the new Russell owners also own the FBMW. There are about a dozen or so Russell racers that bought Pro cars an are now running them through Worldspeed. Of course none of them are the the young up and comers that Russell is hoping to attract, but then again if you plan on moving up I suppose an arrive and drive with a hot cool car would be better than buying a car and running for one year.

Originally Posted by cooleyjb

Russell has made the choice to compete in the market that FBMW and Star Mazda are in. They might believe that they can better compete against those series than they can against Skip Barber. Skip Barber has a choice in the future to stay in the same general price bracket they are in, or step up and compete with the 3 other open wheel series. Hopefully they won't step up to the higher bracket and keep the entry level series into open wheel remain 'relatively' cheap.

Skippy always had a number of advantages of Russell in the entry level series. Different Regions, several tracks per region, etc, but there was always a core group of us that they could rely on to b there from year to year. The new owners clearly want to take Russell in a new direction, it just
seems an awfully risky move to me. No risk, no reward though.

Originally Posted by cooleyjb

As for the Stohr F1000, that is a pretty car. I've had the chance to race against one in my FC a couple of times this year. The car looks good, has lots of power and looks like a dream to drive.

Thanks! I am really looking forward to getting it on the track. They look and sound awesome. 13,000 rpm. what could be better?

[WatertownNewbie]

Originally Posted by cooleyjb

FBMW, Star Mazda, etc. are all in a much higher cost bracket. FBMW and Mazda don't have trouble getting cars to the gird with the costs associated with those series.

That's true, and I was disappointed to see that there were only three groups at the first Laguna Seca weekend of the Western Series. Not a very strong turnout despite the venue. All of the trends do not seem to be very promising for those of us who can afford to run only a few weekends a year (be it from finances or schedules or whatever other reasons).

[Jim Pace]

This thread has many valid points. Racing offers different opportunities to different individuals and their situations. SBRS has always had a plus for learning new tracks and preparing one to "go racing" regardless of the car. Basically if one can drive a Skippy car well... they can drive anything. A very good training ground!

Other groups offer convenience, familiarity, and fun which may fit other situations. IF I lived within 400 miles of a road course I would frequent that road course! Skippy, Russell, SCCA, etc... it doesn't matter! DRIVE! There is always a car and always someone that will run it. If it is convenient, and your drive often, you will gain from the seat time (more with good instruction ) but gain all the same). Learning in a great car is awesome but a little embarrassing when you actually need some talent. One only needs to attend a PCA or HSR event to see how few drivers can actually downshift anything other than a sequential gearbox!

Race where you have fun! Race where it is convenient and allows you to do it often. Race where you become a better driver!

JP

[jeffrey Pietz]

What is the F 1000? What are the specs? Weight , power etc. Can anyone ballpark the cost? Is this an SCCA class?

[jeffrey Pietz]

What is the spec on F1000? weight , power, cost? Is this an SCCA class?

[cooleyjb]

F1000 is an SCCA Regional Class. You run a 1 liter bike motor. Cost is anywhere from 20-60K just to get the car.

You can get there two different directions. 1 is buy a purpose built F1000 car like the ones from Stohr. Or you can buy a mid 90's Van Diemen cut the back off the car, rebuild the rear frame to hold the bike motor and transmission. The only way to do it cheap is to do the fabrication work yourself.

This weekend at the ARRC at Road Atlanta was the best group of F1000 cars and drivers. Pro Drivers like Tonis Kasemets and F2000 champion Cole Morgan were down there in the new factory built cars. The times were getting close to what Formula Atlantic cars were running.

For lots more info on the cars, (I don't knwo too much about them personally) you can get lots of knowledge on www.apexspeed.com forums. Also Stohr and a few of the other manufacturers have websites.

[Slowhands]

Jeff,

Here is the actual spec as of Dec 2006:

http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...2-fastrack.pdf


Based on member input the F1000 rules have been revised as follows:

H.1. FORMULA 1000 PREPARATION RULES
Formula 1000 is a restricted class. Therefore, all allowable modifications, changes, or
additions are as stated herein. There are no exceptions. IF IN DOUBT, DON'T. Homologation is required for all cars.
A. Definition
A formula for purpose built, open-wheel, open cockpit racing cars. F1000 allows converted Formula Continental, Formula 2000, Formula Ford, and purpose-built motorcycle-powered tube frame chassis. Re-homologation as an F1000 is required for all converted cars.
B. Safety
F1000 cars must comply with GCR Sections 17, 18, 19, and 20. Additional safety requirements are addressed in sections C and D.
C. Chassis
1. The chassis shall be of tubular steel construction only. Composite construction (defined as carbon fiber, Kevlar, honeycomb or fiberglass) in a
structural application is prohibited, except as specifically allowed in these rules. Stress bearing panels are not permitted except as specifically
allowed in these rules. Stress bearing panels are defined as sheet metal affixed to the frame by welding, bonding, rivets, bolts, or screws which
have centers closer than 150mm.
2. The soles of the driver's feet shall not extend beyond the front edge of the wheel rims (in normal position; i.e., pedals not depressed) and
shall remain behind the front bulkhead. The lower mainframe tubes shall be a minimum of 25cm apart (inside dimension) from the front bulkhead to the rear roll hoop.
3. The area between the upper and lower mainframe tubes from the front roll hoop bulkhead to the rear roll hoop bulkhead shall incorporate one of the following:
a. Panel(s), minimum of either.060 inch heat-treated aluminum (6061-T6 or equivalent) or eighteen (18) gauge steel, attached outside of the chassis tubes.
b. Reinforced body at a minimum, consisting of a double layer, five (5) oz., bi-directional, laminated Kevlar material incorporated into the
body which shall be securely fastened to the frame.
For either method, fastener centers shall not be closer than 150mm (no stress-bearing panels). The material used for the chassis braces in this
area shall at least be equivalent to the roll hoop brace material.
4. A stress-bearing floor pan/undertray is permitted between the front bulkhead and the rear axles. Composite or stabilized materials shall not
be used for stress-bearing panels. The mountings for brake and clutch pedals and cylinders (front bulkhead), instruments, (front roll hoop
bulkhead), and rear roll hoop bulkhead (behind the driver) may be stress-bearing panels, also. The firewall portion of the rear roll hoop bulkhead
(panel) shall extend the full width of the cockpit. Forward facing air ducts may be installed to deliver air directly to the engine area. Air duct
openings may be located within the cockpit provided the firewall is extended to prevent flame and debris from reaching the driver. (Any shape
may be used to form the firewall extension.) All firewall inlets shall prohibit passage of flame and debris
5. Brackets for mounting components, such as the engine, transmission, suspension pickups, instruments, clutch and brake components, and body panels may be nonferrous, of any shape, and fastened to the frame in any manner.
6. No engine oil or water tubes are permitted within the cockpit.
7. It is not permitted to construct any suspension member in the form of an asymmetrical airfoil or to incorporate a spoiler in the construction of any suspension member. Symmetrical streamlining of suspension members is permitted.
8. Front and rear impact attenuation structures are strongly recommended. Impact attenuation structures shall be securely attached to the entirely sprung part of the car. Attachment of any front impact attenuation structure shall not extend more than 50mm to the rear of the front
bulkhead. Impact attenuation structures may be fabricated from metallic and/or composite materials.
D. Bodywork and Airfoils
1. See table of dimensions. (Airfoils are a requirement for this class.) Forward-facing roll bar/roll cage bracing and required padding will not be considered in the cockpit opening dimensions shown in the table.
2. The driver's seat shall be capable of being entered without the manipulation or removal of any part or panel, except the steering wheel and/or driver's head surround structure. The steering wheel and head surround must be removable by the driver without the use of any
tools.
3. Fuel filler necks, caps, or lids shall not protrude beyond the bodywork of the car.
4. Carbon fiber is prohibited in any external panels or any panels licked by the air stream (e.g., radiator ducting or engine air inlet), with the exception of impact attenuation structures. Carbon fiber may be used in internal panels and components (e.g., instrument panel, radio boxes) unless otherwise restricted.
5. The entrant shall designate a flat rectangular reference area with minimum dimensions of 30cm by 30cm. This reference area is located on the lower surface of the car (the surface licked by the air stream) between the rear of the front tire and the front of the rear tire. The
center of the reference area must be no more than 75mm from the longitudinal centerline of the vehicle. Between the rear of the front tire and the front of the rear tire, no point on the lower surface of the car (the surface licked by the air stream) shall be more than 25mm above the plane
determined by the reference area designated by the entrant and on a line perpendicular to that reference plane. No point on the lower surface of the car may be below the plane determined by the reference surface on a line perpendicular to that reference plane, except as specifically
permitted herein. Compliance with these requirements shall be accomplished by placing a straight edge on the reference surface designated by the entrant and verifying that the requirements are met. A maximum of four (4) rub blocks of maximum dimension 75mm by 125mm are allowed anywhere on the lower surface of the chassis, and may extend below the
reference plane
6. A diffuser is permitted behind the front of the rear tires. The maximum width of the diffuser is 95 cm.
7. Movable aerodynamic devices, including aerodynamic skirts, are prohibited.
8. The maximum permitted width of the bodywork is 150cm. The width of the entire lower surface of the car between the rear of the front tires and the front of the rear tires shall not exceed the maximum width of the bodywork by more than 50mm and shall not exceed 150cm.
9. The safety roll bar/roll cage and engine air box are not included in the maximum height restriction (dimension C in the table below).
E. Engines
1. Motorcycle-based 4-cycle up to 1000cc.
2. Engine internals and compression ratio must remain stock. The competitor must present, on demand, an original factory manual for the engine to allow compliance verification.
3. The stock ECU shall be used. The ECU fuel map may be changed. Devices that modify inputs to the ECU (e.g., Power Commander) may be used. Stand-alone after market ECUs are not permitted.
4. Turbochargers and superchargers are prohibited.
5. Carburetion and fuel injection are unrestricted.
6. The exhaust system and exhaust manifold are unrestricted, within SCCA safety regulations
7. The lubrication system is unrestricted. A dry sump system is permitted; any oil pan and/or
baffling is permitted.
8. Oil coolers are unrestricted.
9. The cooling system is unrestricted. Radiators, if housed in or incorporating a cowl air-scoop deflector, shall comply with bodywork rules.
F. Inlet Restrictors
The air inlet system is unrestricted at this time. However, the CRB may require the use of an inlet restrictor at any time by publishing the requirements in FasTrack.
G. Fuel system
The fuel system is unrestricted within the following limitations:
1. Any fuel permitted for any class in GCR 17.4.1 may be used in F1000.
2. Fuel Cell Vents: Fuel tank air vents shall be located at least 25cm to the rear of the cockpit.
3. Fuel Filler Neck: Fuel filler necks, caps, or lids shall not protrude beyond the bodywork of the car.
4. Fuel cell shall comply with Section 19.
5. Fuel capacity maximum is 10.83 gallons.
H. Electrical System
The electrical system is unrestricted within the following limitations:
1. Self-starter: Cars shall be equipped with an on-board self-starter and an on-board power supply controlled by the driver while in a normal driving position.
2. Lights: a taillight (rain light) is required per GCR Section 17.19
I. Transmission/Final Drive
1. Rear wheel drive only is permitted.
2. The final drive ratio is unrestricted.
3. Cars may use sequentially shifted motorcycle transmissions. Reverse gear is not required.
4. All gear changes must be initiated by the driver. Mechanical gear shifters, direct-acting electric solenoid shifters, air-shifters and similar devices are permitted. Devices that allow pre- selected gear changes are prohibited.
5. The clutch is unrestricted.
J.Suspension
1. All suspension components shall be of steel or ferrous material, except that hubs, hub adapters, hub carriers, bell cranks, pivot blocks, bearings and bushings, spring caps, abutment nuts, anti-roll bar links, shock absorber caps, and nuts may be aluminum alloy.
2. Springs must be steel
2. Springs must be steel.
3. Shock absorbers must be steel or aluminum alloy body.
4. Control arms and all associated items that attach directly to the chassis members shall be boxed in or captured to prevent intrusion into the cockpit.
5. Front A-arms shall be equipped with anti-intrusion bars to limit intrusion into the cockpit.
K. Brakes
Unrestricted, except for the following:
1. All pistons in a given caliper must be of the same size. Calipers must be ferrous or aluminum alloy.
2. Brake rotors are restricted to ferrous material.
L. Steering
Unrestricted.
M. Wheels and Tires
Thirteen-inch diameter wheels with a maximum rim width of 10-inches are the only wheel sizes permitted. Material is unrestricted providing it is metal.
N. Minimum weight
Minimum weight is 1,000 lbs

[gt250]

Been watching the development of this new formula for some time. Great looking cars, and must sound great at 13k rpm's.
Here's more info.

http://www.formula1000.com/

[wbs]

Well, modern motorcycles are amazing. I recently bought a Kawasaki Ninja 500, still in the break-in period, so I can't open her up, but it's still just wild to read about how the powerband is between 9K-11K!

And even in the limited range in which I am running the engine, it's strange to feel the acceleration just get stronger and stronger as it revs up, then {sigh} I have to shift up.

[LimeRockRacer]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

I heard with the new Chinese supplier, they got the trophies down to under 20 bucks. Just don't lick them.

The new trophies, or should I say cookie platters with lead content above Federally recommended limits, have little redeeming qualities other than shipping and storage weight. They cannot be dislplayed very easily on a shelf and tarnish by day 3!

Bring back the marble based tin cups from some other Asian source. At least they didnt tarnish and looked nice on our shelves next to our Skippy Bobblehead collections!