Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

[999]

Gerardo/Sy

Sorry for taking this thread in the wrong direction, but I felt the counter point needed to be expressed.

I think it would be good if on these threads (which are pretty interesting) you made a disclaimer that price should not be the focus. This is a debate on what is important and what isn't to make the racing experience attractive to customers.

Separately, SB management needs to take that feedback, run the numbers, and decide how much product they can/must offer to attract a mix of customers that provides them an appropriate return.

At one extreme, we could really save money and remove the engines. We could run the RT's like soapbox derby cars from the top of the downhill to start/finish at Lime Rock. Would reduce costs including crash damage. And, since each race is only one lap, we could run a few memorials, and still get home at a reasonable time.

On the other side, we can all go run Rolex DP cars. It's been done...

[OLDMAN]

Nobody is denying that SBRS is the best bang for the buck. What many are saying is that even the best buy can be too expensive. It's like comparing Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus and Lamborghini and pointing out what a great value the Porsche is.

I don't need the 32 ounce soda at the movies even though they tell me it's a great value at $4.50. I'd be quite happy with a 12 oz can for a buck.

OLDMAN

[cdh]

Originally Posted by 999

....price should not be the focus. This is a debate on what is important and what isn't to make the racing experience attractive to customers...

ok, fair enough, but price is more important to me than wings, slicks, sequentials, halos, data aquisition....so I just wont post on these topics, you all know where I stand, keep it simple and less expensive and they will come.

[rf360m]

I agree that price is THE most important part of the equation. Yes, data acquisition would be nice, but what use is it to me, or other people who are on a budget, if it increases the price to where I can't run a race weekend?

[cdh]

Originally Posted by 999

...At one extreme, we could really save money and remove the engines....

it's been tried oops, I wasn't supposed to post here .... (low-cost racing parody by Big Dick)

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

Nobody is denying that SBRS is the best bang for the buck. What many are saying is that even the best buy can be too expensive. It's like comparing Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus and Lamborghini and pointing out what a great value the Porsche is.

I don't need the 32 ounce soda at the movies even though they tell me it's a great value at $4.50. I'd be quite happy with a 12 oz can for a buck.

OLDMAN

To agree with and carry OLDMAN's analogy a bit further: Most of us, and our enlarging population, are better off when we don't supersize servings. Many of the things Michael describes in more costly series involve LESS seat time, fun, safety and affordability. Other series are faster.

Cost is very important. This repeated theme is pivotal for the character and perhaps continuation of SBR and it is worth belaboring because many things that should go without saying have to be said many times before they go - an expression I heard repeatedly from my grandfather. Or, as Samuel Johnson put it, "Men more often need to be reminded than instructed."

[chsutherland]

Why can't data acquisition be included as part of a package for a lapping day, race weekend or at least on a lead follow? All of us spend a lot of money with SB. It is the most i have ever spent on anything. I don't want to appear unhappy with my weekend, or with their service, it just seems to me that the race weekends are a little "light" on amenities for the race weekend price. You get far more seat time on a lapping day, or lead follow, at a reduced cost. I just don't understand where all their money goes, the instructors all say its a great job if you can afford it, and the mechanics don't seem to get paid much, i raced all weekend with flat-spotted tires, i paid for any damage i did, and $2500 bucks got me 60min of track time. So for me $42/minute should get me alitte more. Am i asking too much? Without guys like me, who will all the fast guys pass? So far i have proved to be pretty easy money for skip, i have signed up for everything i can, and am asking for more! But if a race weekend gets much more expensive i will just save up and do grand-am racing weekends. To say that these threads should be based on what would make the racing better without considering price is silly. But hey what do i know, maybe the series would be more fun with a brand new car and 5 guys in the series. But if an 84 person series is what you want.....then price it is. Volume hides a multitude of sins.

[PT Cruiser]

Doug,

Your low-cost skippy school is a hoot!!!

Doesn't the iPod have an add on that helps joggers monitor their pace? That would be the perfect data acquisition system for your proposed school!!

[kwlorentzen]

Originally Posted by arig

If the cost of the race weekend goes up by anything more than 10% because of the data equipment, then I wouldn't sign up for it. However, having said that, we NEED some sort of system b/c this kind of information provided is even more invaluable than the instructor feedback and I think that is saying a lot.

I agree with the 10% rule. If we're paying 100$ for just one race video, then I don't think $200 is too much for a whole weekends worth of data that you can analyze with/without instructors....make it available for us to take home with us as well. Information is key to learning how to go faster and be safer doing it. If you're just beginning and would be confused by the aditional info, train yourself for the time being to ignore it until you are ready.

Data that I would be interested in would include Lap times (and splits if they're being used) lateral and longitudinal G's, temps, and RPM's (speed too)

[Jim Pace]

DATA?
I like data! It is after the fact, however. What I would like to see would be Max/Min speeds and lap times. (Sort of like wearing a stop watch and checking the tach!) This provides information the driver can use now to go faster! Real time right now go faster! LESS BRAKE MORE GAS GO FASTER! Not the next session or next day but now.

Knowledge is Power! Power can be Good. You will pay extra.

It already exists in the Computer Lapping Program!!!

Data in a regular Skippy car? Difficult decisions that come down to cost & logistics. Any new system will cost something and extra staff will be required to support it. Extra time and a place to review data would be nice also for you extra $$.

Weather issues?

Sharing information is another issue already toughed upon. Peter may not want you to see his 56.5? Maybe the guy shuts off the data so as not to share? Is there a discount if the driver did not share?
Do you disallow a lap because the car was "out of the window"...just before it blew of course.)

Data for testing would be great only touching the surface. Many times in the Pro Series two people would see speed traces completely different...1/2 full vs 1/2 empty so not always as easy as it might seem. Now you need steering postion, throtle, lat G, blah blah blah.

Keep it simple and have fun learning where you can afford to drive.

Thanks taking the time to read my ideas.
JP

[John Greist]

Thanks Jim for restating important points. Real time sure beats after the fact.

SBR has been teaching us to "check the tach" at track out - and sometimes mid corner . That data, plus lap time (splits if one can integrate more data), tells us where we're fast and slow. Then it's not hard to figure out and try LESS BRAKE, MORE GAS SOONER, SMOOTHER to GO FASTER.

I'm sure we can learn some things from other data at the margins, but we're probably best served to have helpful interpretation from instructors who data mine the computer car all day long. Computer car is expensive, but as we all know, going faster is expensive. We pay our money and make our choices: more seat time (Skippy or kart), computer car, lead-follow, private coaching, etc.

The more sophisticated the data gathering system on the new cars, the more it will cost and the less durable it's likely to be. Just keeping the computer car up has been challenging at times - what happened to the video that added an important dimension to the learning curve? Paying every session for something most of us won't use to advantage doesn't seem a good investment in going faster.

Thanks for reiterating the key concepts.

[LimeRockRacer]

This discussion just reinforces the saying that " Racing is like drugs"

The more you do, the more you want, the more you spend, the bigger the high you search for...etc etc.

I think most of us would be happy with a case of beer...you name the brand!

[sydude]

These are the data acq features that I'd like to see for the new car:

Free (no flash card needed, system is always on)

1. Lap Time / Splits
2. Best Lap Time

Pay to Play (you need to 'rent' a special flash card/usb key for the weekend - $125? $250?) for download and self analysis

1. Speed
2. Brake Pressure
3. Throttle Position
4. Steering Angle
5. RPM
6. Gear

Other

1. Skippy should run a series of 'Data Analysis' Seminars (in the afternoons after lapping days preceding a race weekend?), so that racers can learn how to use the software and analyze the data. Cost for a complete classroom-only curriculum should be approx. $1000-$2000, including the software we need. You need to bring your own laptop.

2. You can hire a skippy instructor to help analyze your data on a per session or per weekend basis, approx, $100/$500 respectively.

---

I think that enough 'value added' users would take advantage of the data acquisition options to make it profitable enough for SBRS to provide the system without having to increase the price of the series for everyone.

Finally, I think its an absolute MUST to have data acquisition in the new car.

[KingTito]

I almost feel as though I shouldn't weigh in on this topic as my experience level is very low but I figure that, while there is a large group of very experienced drivers represented on this forum, there is a fairly large group of people with my experience level.

I assume Skippy has a challenge in that many of the experienced drivers with a lot of tenure with Skip Barber pay most of Skip Barber's bills. So, keeping those folks engaged with continuous improvement (new cars, data acquistion, slick tires, new tracks).

However, as these folks find other racing avenues to explore and have more distractions, Skip has to manage to progress fringe characters like me and others into long-term Skippy drivers.

While I have often heard that data review is important for drivers of all skill levels, I am not sure I agree with that.

My belief is that I have enough to work on that I can do by myself.

Once I feel like I am capable of systematically working on adjusting my braking points, trying different lines, smooth brake-throttle-steering inputs and transitions, etc., I think lead-follows would be infinitely more valuable than looking a bunch of data. So, that would be by next step.

So, the long and the short of it is that, while I love racing, I don't have the means (time and cash) to jump all the way in (run a full season, dabble in Star Mazda after a few years, etc.).

So, this is going to remain "hobby" where my goal is 4 raceweekends a year for the next few years. After that, we will see if I can make a step up to 6 or so.

If the cost increases much more than it is right now, I will have to do fewer race weekends and I have no other venues I could jump into.

I vote no for data acquisition.

I believe it has been said before but, perhaps, all cars can be rigged for data acquisition enabling bulk purchasing of all of the requisite components. However, maybe the business model is to tap it only on demand. Therefore, if 100% of people wanted data acquisition, you'd be able to charge $50 to pay for all of the equipment.

However, if only 10% want it, charge $500 for the privelage. This keeps all happy in that if I don't want it, I don't have to pay for it. If drivers like me see the others using it, perhaps we will spring for it and Skippy can look at usage and adjust the price accordingly.

To clarify, it should be it's own business model for lack of better terms. Don't raise the price to incorporate it. The fees to use it should pay for itself and generate operating profit.

[Vin]

1. Do you want data acquisition? WHY do you want it or not want it?
Yes. Of course the instructors do a great job to help you go faster, but when you are chasing the last few tenths, it is difficult for anyone to see the difference from the outside of the car. If you are more than second off from the fastest guy, it really is not necessary.

2. Would you like the ability to transfer data to your laptop?
Yes. In fact, I don't think the instructors will have enough time to analyze the data with all the drivers, so they should just give you the data, and you can do what you want with it.

3. Would you prefer a simple data system, or a more complex system?
For reasons of cost, just a simple system. All you need is 2 sensors, a Becon sensor (for laps) and a speed sensor. Throttle position and RPM can be taken from the cars ECU.

4. Which channels would you like to be able to analyze? You would have "speed" at the minimum. Please write what else you'd want to look at.
More channels are better, but stuff like suspension sensors are useless when you can't change the setup. I'd say all you need is Speed, Throttle and RPM. Brake is not necessary as you can use the Speed trace to see how well you are braking, and also the braking point. RPM and Throttle can be taken from the ECU some how.

5. Any other comments?
For the Formula Renaults we work with, we finally got data loggers for all the cars. Not only to help teach the driver, but also to save cost! With a data logger, drivers can't complain their motors are slow, you can see it in the data. Plus, when a diver over revs the motor every session, then it breaks, we have proof that it was the drivers problem, and not the motor. And since it is rare for a car to be damaged to the point that it destroys the Data Logger, it is only a one time cost, and can easily pay for it self in a couple years or so.

So, in summary I think all the cars should have a simple Data Logger at no cost to the driver. At the same time, I think they should not be responsible to analyze the data with the driver, just give the data to any drivers that want it, and let him analyze it himself.

Have a happy. .
Vinay

[Dom Bastien]

My answer would be no, no, and no and then no.

I used to do computer cars. The net lesson every time is: spend less time on the brakes and more time on the gas. All you need is the computer car print-out from Bobo or MHP or Conrad and you’ll know exactly how it’s supposed to be done. Alternatively, get a video of Jason or Bobo or whomever. Better still, do a lead follow and someone will whisper in your ear in real time: BACK ON THE POWER!

The one thing that would be helpful would be a lap timer and split times built in the car.

How much should Skip Barber charge for that?

Say a Michron Light is $250. Ok, Skip Barber charges something like $200 for a lifetime of lap times and split times or $25 per race week-end. I would think that new drivers would opt for the Skip Barber System and not bother buying a Michron light. Even those with a Michron Light would probably fork over another $200 just to get the split times and not having to bother with all the fuss associated with setting up the michron light in the car.

[badgersid]

I dont think peter ever sat in the computer car seat. He just figured it out by himself and instructor feedback.

GOD knows he solve's all his errors with the accelerator. He is completly confident in himself and the car.

There is a lesson there

[PT Cruiser]

Originally Posted by badgersid

I dont think peter ever sat in the computer car seat. He just figured it out by himself and instructor feedback.

GOD knows he solve's all his errors with the accelerator. He is completly confident in himself and the car.

There is a lesson there

Yeah, on the other hand Peter probably rang up more crash damage learning how to be super-fast that I've earned over the entire course of my 25 year engineering career.

I'd cite Sy as the counter-example: someone who has absorbed a lot of information outside of the car, and used that info to significantly improve his driving, with a lot less seat time (and I'm guessing a lot less crash damage) than Mr. Ludwig.

It is true that it can be hard to take data, after the fact, and use it to improve the next time out on the track. So in this respect, lead follow probably has some inherent benefits. I also think that seeing your most recent lap time immediately after crossing start finish, while the things you did on the lap just completed are fresh in your mind, is much more useful than getting a sheet of lap times after the session is over, when you can't remember whether you blew the turn before the longest straight on lap 4 or lap 5, or whether that was the lap when you dropped two at the kink. Note, however, that data showing you where you are already doing things RIGHT, and SHOULDN'T be making changes in an attempt to find more speed, can be quite invaluable --even if you aren't able to go out and improve in the places where the data shows you are slow-- as it can stop you from going backwards by trying to fix what isn't broken.

[Rossfeld]

I think full data aquisition is a bridge too far for most. This is still entry level afterall.

Though a simple laptimer isn't the end of the world, especially in race weekends. I can understand in schools you wouldnt want it on because you want guys worrying about driving not looking at the stopwatch all day.

[Gerardo]

Before I post the summary to this thread, I've got a comment too!

A few have posted that data is only useful for drivers who are at 95% of the limit. While I was told this when I began to train on a data system some eight years ago, I have learned over those eight years of teaching Computer Car and racing pro cars that this is not really the case.

Data is a useful tool (as Ziegel pointed out), but I believe it is a useful tool for all, only in different ways. For many drivers, it might not be needed right away, but don't let lap time be the judge of that. Let your current learning experience dictate. Allow the experienced racers and coaches to guide you on when its time to try data as a learning tool.

In eight years of teaching data at Skip Barber I've learned the quality of the session can be maintained at a high level for any driver as long as the coach gives the driver exactly what they need at that time. I find the different learning styles and needs of my drivers to be fascinating.

[Gerardo]

This post will close this thread.

Thank you all once again for participating in the Data Acquisition survey. Here is a brief summary of the points you made.

1. Many debated if access to data should be an "extra charge" item. Some suggested certain basic data be included in a race weekend cost. Others suggested premium features might cost extra, such as sitting down with an instructor for debrief. All were wary of any increases in cost.

2. Some wondered if data systems may add to crash damage costs.

3. There was a strong desire to see how the fastest competitors did their record laps. Suggestion that places value in comparing your data against the fastest times in the same session you drove.

4. Most say data is a good thing.

5. Many are saying make the use / analysis of data optional.

6. Good arguments for a simple, easy to interpret system, one that can transfer data to personal laptops.

7. Suggestions to offer a data analysis class.

8. Comment that the survey topics have often come down to simplicity and cost.

9. Suggestion for mass downloading each session, with file distribution in hospitality. Certainly an interesting idea, even if challenging.

10. Emphasis on having a lap to compare yourself to. Could be tester, could be fastest driver in that session, could be an early am time, could be same session. Something is better than only having your own data.

11. Suggestion to make data included in weekend price. More comments about controlling overall costs.

12. Real time information on the dash, like minimum corner speed, revs, etc is valuable, perhaps more so than "after the fact" data you look at later.
**************

Thank you all once again for sharing your thoughts and ideas. I have no idea what business model Skip Barber is going to use with the new car and its data system, and even if I did know, I'm not allowed to share it in this public forum.

However, they are reading, and without question want you guys to love and afford the product. Great posts guys, thank you so much.

Stay tuned for Survey topic #5 of 8.