Team Juicy Racing's Racing School and Race Series Forums
Go Back   Team Juicy Racing's Racing School and Race Series Forums > Racing Schools & Race Series Forums > Race Series Discussions
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-16-2006
Gerardo's Avatar
Gerardo Gerardo is offline
Irrational National
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 640

Gallery Images: 815
New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Welcome to the New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8, presented by Sy and myself. This week's topic is DATA ACQUISITION. Let's get right to it.

As with previous solicitations for feedback, lets keep a nice balance of positive and negative comments. Thanks so much!


2007 Skippy Car Survey #4 of 8 - DATA ACQUISITION

1. Do you want data acquisition? WHY do you want it or not want it?

2. Would you like the ability to transfer data to your laptop?

3. Would you prefer a simple data system, or a more complex system?

4. Which channels would you like to be able to analyze? You would have "speed" at the minimum. Please write what else you'd want to look at.

5. Any other comments?

This thread will be closed to further replies just before midnight on Sunday, October 22. The next topic will then be introduced.

Thanks again!
__________________
Gerardo Bonilla

Professor of Comedic Slip Angle Use
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-16-2006
Jisu Kim's Avatar
Jisu Kim Jisu Kim is offline
Podium Regular / Advanced Member (50+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 87
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

1. Yes. Helpful to recap each session and combine with specific data with subjective recollections.

2. Definitely should be available as an option. Maybe a USB memory stick that each driver could provide on his/her own. That way, it's optional for those who care.

3. As complex as a reasonabe budget permits.

4. Speed, Revs, brake pressure, throttle position, steering angle, lateral g's and, of course, lap and sector times.

5. The application used to analyze the data will play a big role in how useful the system will be. Great additions would be a reference lap from a tester/instructor and a clean track map.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-16-2006
999's Avatar
999 999 is offline
Running Amok.
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 135
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

there should be data on all cars, all the time. the base price for driving should not include getting access to it, but an upgrade charge would allow it. or, for double the upgrade fee, you can get data 'after the fact'. finally, an additional cost would allow for reviewing the data with an instructor.

For example... Oldman would never part with a nickle to see data. Some would want to see data on every run and would pre-pay. Others would not want it all the time, but would pay extra after a particularly good or bad run, to see what had gone on. I would pay even more to see how the hell lugnutz ran a 56.5 at lrp!!!!!

skippy should also work out a deal with helix for the same kind of structure... ie all races are filmed. you can pre-pay, or pay extra after the fact.

here is a question... would skip be able to review data to determine fault in an accident? might that somehow enable them to adjust crash damage liability?
__________________
Number nine.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-16-2006
rf360m rf360m is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 143
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

I agree that having data acqusition capabilities on the car would be a good thing. However, as I can't see myself using them in the near future, I would not want the cost to rise because of having them there. I race about 2-3 races a season, and therefore know that my time improvments come from having more confidence in the car, and being able to feel it better. I know I am not braking late enough for some turns, or am not carrying enough speed through the turn, etc - the instructors can tell me that, and I can see it based on the other drivers around me. So I don't need a computer to tell me the same thing.

However, for drivers who do all the races and do want to know where they can gain a little bit here of there it could be useful. So having it as an option may be a good idea. But only if it does not increase the base cost to drivers who don't want it.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-16-2006
jcraige's Avatar
jcraige jcraige is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 634
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Quote:
Originally Posted by 999
I would pay even more to see how the hell lugnutz ran a 56.5 at lrp!!!!!
LOL! I was thinking the EXACT same thing. 56.5? That's not all coming from a slightly later brake point in turn 1!

I think it would be nice to be able to compare braking, throttle etc. like we do it the computer car. I still look at my data output vs. Phil from those.

I love numbers, and the more data the better, but not at the expense of a significant increase in cost unless it's optional. Then again, maybe this will be a selling point to get more people on the grid.

Also, stick the "box" somewhere where it's almost impossible even for us to break it. And make a rule that if it's broken before a race, it is divine intervention. No "rebooting" the system on the grid or swapping cars. Unplug and move on.

Life is too short and we need more Memorial races!!!!
__________________
WWSD?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-16-2006
OLDMAN's Avatar
OLDMAN OLDMAN is offline
GrandMasterB
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Southern Connecticut
Age: 71
Posts: 466

Gallery Images: 57
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

This whole Skippy racing thing is getting way out of hand. Is everybody but me going to Indy?

I miss the good ol days when it was really a lot of fun.

Ditto on Mike - 56.5! The last time I did a 56.5 I was on the Stonington High Track Team and Kennedy was president. I need a new hobby.

OLDMAN
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-16-2006
dlippert's Avatar
dlippert dlippert is offline
Big Dick
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 553
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Data would be very nice to have and of much moe benefit if it could be loaded to a personal laptop. I think to be meaningful it would need brake, throttle, speed etc. I also like the suggestion of it being optional, although I think it should be included in the 2 national championship series.

My only reservation is if it will materially add to crash damage costs and perhaps make it more time-consuming to get cars back into service after crashes. The mechanics are pretty well stressed as it is.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-17-2006
dalyduo's Avatar
dalyduo dalyduo is offline
Grand Master
Carbon Fiber Keyboard (3,000+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: location, location
Posts: 5,399

Gallery Images: 112
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

I think data acquisition is both a powerful learning and marketing tool. If the cars can be outfitted with that option reliably and as others have suggested in a way that makes the acquisition sensors easily replaceable or integrated in replacement parts then I'm all for it. The option of having data acquisition in every car would be an enormous added value to the experience at every level.

In doing racing school research a couple of years ago the only school that offered data acquisition on all of it's cars was the Derek Daly school in Las Vegas. That school has been taken over by a web company that makes its living selling racing school services. They are notorious for bad mouthing Skippy and this is what they say on data acquisition:

(Note: The American Racing Acadamy is owned by Robert Prevost who also owns Racingschools.com so these proclamations of superiority are completely self serving.)

“The American Racing Academy programs are clearly superior to those offered by Skip Barber” according to Racingschools.com, independent sales agents to the industry.

Data Acquisition:
The most advanced on-board computer system available.
Each car is equipped with the Stack ST8100 data acquisition system. This exceptional technology gathers and records extensive data as you drive. Data is downloaded to a PC and output on a printed graph, allowing for a more technical evaluation of the driver’s performance.

This information provides an accurate, graphic illustration which is used to evaluate your breaking, cornering and acceleration patterns. It provides a complete analysis of your on-track performance to help the instructor identify where driver and car are the fastest, as well as where improvements can be made. This same technique, is used by the most successful race car drivers around the world.

The seasoned pro as well as the beginning driver will learn new techniques, while gaining greater confidence and skill.


I doubt their cars are driven as hard or crashed as much as our cars but I also doubt the people they train acquire as much skill or have as good a time as we do either.

That said, has anyone had any first hand experience with the Stack ST8100 system, or the Derek Daly/ (renamed) American Racing Academy school cars and the usefulness and reliability of that acquisition system?
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-17-2006
Ricky Schmidt Ricky Schmidt is offline
Skippy Instructor
Rookie / Advanced Member (<10 Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Having data provided either verbally or electronically is always a good thing when your trying to improve your skills in any competition sport.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-17-2006
999's Avatar
999 999 is offline
Running Amok.
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 135
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalyduo
I doubt their cars are driven as hard or crashed as much as our cars but I also doubt the people they train acquire as much skill or have as good a time as we do either.
What leads you to those conclusions?
__________________
Number nine.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-17-2006
dalyduo's Avatar
dalyduo dalyduo is offline
Grand Master
Carbon Fiber Keyboard (3,000+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: location, location
Posts: 5,399

Gallery Images: 112
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Quote:
Originally Posted by 999
What leads you to those conclusions?
Already hijacking this thread in the wrong direction, so this will be the last mention...

They are a racing school that only offers school training and lapping at one track. No real racing ever takes place so the cars aren't put at risk the same way.

Prevost is highly committed to trash talking Skippy with false and misleading comparative lists. Opps... He conveniently neglects to mention the 3 race series at world class tracks all over the country offered by Skip Barber that don't exist in his program or mention that if you actually want to race cars like the ones they train you in... You have to go to Skip Barber or the SCCA.

This is from his web site:

American Racing Academy
1.) Only 12-16 students per school
2.) Passing is allowed
3,) Full track laps all the time
4.) Data acquisition in 2 & 3 day schools
5.) Simulated race starts
6.) Racing radios in every car
7.) F2000 with wings front/back
8.) Exciting Las Vegas atmosphere
9.) Spouse will love Las Vegas
10.) 3 Day Program price: Starting @$3,488.00
Add 4-8 laps in a true FORMULA ONE racecar


Skip Barber Racing School
1.) Up to 28 or more students per school
2.) No passing allowed
3.) Stop every lap for 75% of curriculum
4.) No computers in school cars, period
5.) Nope
6.) Nope
7.) Nope
8.) Do you know where Lime Rock, CT is?
9.) Spouse has no desire to come with you
10.) Theirs: $3995…at Laguna, wow! Not a chance
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)

Last edited by dalyduo; 10-17-2006 at 12:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-17-2006
AlDelattre AlDelattre is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seat 2B
Posts: 161
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Getting back to the original question...

1. Do you want data acquisition? WHY do you want it or not want it?

I found the computer car completely eye-opening and insightful, if somewhat pricey - so I would love some data acquisition. I think it brings "facts and data" to the "subjective" feedback from the instructors (i.e "brake later"). I would love it - however, I'd offset this with "do I need it all the time"? which raises the COST aspect.

I can imagine SBRS wiring up sensors on every car, datalogging the parameters, bringing in GPS, plus the crash g's black box, etc - that is gonna cost some coin....then again, I'd love to learn how to go quicker...


2. Would you like the ability to transfer data to your laptop?

I would make this optional, though I think most of the commercial systems out there already allow that. Might be easier to let each driver who wants their data to bring their own SD-cards - just like they do now with their timers

3. Would you prefer a simple data system, or a more complex system?

Simple. Would be nice if there was a "bring your own" upgrade, but that gets iffy....

4. Which channels would you like to be able to analyze? You would have "speed" at the minimum. Please write what else you'd want to look at.

I think the computer car (today's version) has what I'd like....

5. Any other comments?

I think having radios (receive only) would be good to have - I use a scanner and earbuds and I get a lot out of it (this was covered in a previous thread). I'd love if the cars were pre-wired (with published standards) so people could swap in/out of cars..feels like we delay the hell out of inter-session changeovers as people set up their own (improvised) systems....
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-17-2006
dlippert's Avatar
dlippert dlippert is offline
Big Dick
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 553
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalyduo
I think data acquisition is both a powerful learning and marketing tool. If the cars can be outfitted with that option reliably and as others have suggested in a way that makes the acquisition sensors easily replaceable or integrated in replacement parts then I'm all for it. The option of having data acquisition in every car would be an enormous added value to the experience at every level.

In doing racing school research a couple of years ago the only school that offered data acquisition on all of it's cars was the Derek Daly school in Las Vegas. That school has been taken over by a web company that makes its living selling racing school services. They are notorious for bad mouthing Skippy and this is what they say on data acquisition:

(Note: The American Racing Acadamy is owned by Robert Prevost who also owns Racingschools.com so these proclamations of superiority are completely self serving.)

“The American Racing Academy programs are clearly superior to those offered by Skip Barber” according to Racingschools.com, independent sales agents to the industry.

Data Acquisition:
The most advanced on-board computer system available.
Each car is equipped with the Stack ST8100 data acquisition system. This exceptional technology gathers and records extensive data as you drive. Data is downloaded to a PC and output on a printed graph, allowing for a more technical evaluation of the driver’s performance.

This information provides an accurate, graphic illustration which is used to evaluate your breaking, cornering and acceleration patterns. It provides a complete analysis of your on-track performance to help the instructor identify where driver and car are the fastest, as well as where improvements can be made. This same technique, is used by the most successful race car drivers around the world.

The seasoned pro as well as the beginning driver will learn new techniques, while gaining greater confidence and skill.


I doubt their cars are driven as hard or crashed as much as our cars but I also doubt the people they train acquire as much skill or have as good a time as we do either.

That said, has anyone had any first hand experience with the Stack ST8100 system, or the Derek Daly/ (renamed) American Racing Academy school cars and the usefulness and reliability of that acquisition system?
I did the Daly 4 day chool and it was OK. I also sent my daughter to the Skippy 3 day and observed the full event, so I can compare.

First, and on the point of the thread, the data. I think in one's first racing school it is useless. The student is trying to become comfortable in an alien vehicle environment, master new driving dynamics, learn heal-and-toe, etc. Trying to learn what the data present and apply it in the car is just system overload. Verbal one-on-one feedback is at that stage a better teaching tool.

Off point, their 4 day format allowed for some extra time in car control activites that were helpful. They also included lapping in BMW Z3's that allowed the instructor to ride with the student and was a pretty good part of the program.

I think though that the SBRS system that progresses from the 3 day to the 2 day advanced to lapping and then the various levels of race series is a far superior real world learning program. If one wants to spend 4 grand on a one-time only "racing" experience, the I suppose the case could be legitimately argued either way. Keep in mind, my experience was with Daly, not the new guys.

Last edited by dlippert; 10-17-2006 at 01:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-17-2006
chris chris is offline
maxheadroom
Rookie / Advanced Member (<10 Posts)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: NJ
Posts: 5
Wink Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

1. Yes, I am in favor of data aquisition being available on the new cars. Should be a more sophisticated format, just like the current computer car. The faster you get the more useful such a system is.

2. I believe it makes no real sense for drivers not already at 95% or more to analyze it. So it should be a passive system, acquiring each session, and availabe, but not necessarily utilized. If a driver wants to see and match his data, perhaps he can download himself using pitlane available laptops, and walk over to a tent/trailer and get in line to analyze with an instructor(s), who will add a tester lap via cd to the acquired data. A fixed price for a 5 minute analysis could be $150- $250 and be worthwhile. Feed back is the usual fashion would still be available if you do not use the computer. SBR needs to do the math on this idea, but my math shows system payoff in 3 weekends, with 3, 16 car, 5 group, sessions per weekend at 13% utillization and an initial cost of $1000/car.

3. That reminds me. I have to call Chris K. and get him to remove the bill for the C car at MO. Rrealized I needed bumper car practice, & never got in.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-17-2006
Mikel Miller Mikel Miller is offline
Skippy Instructor
Rookie / Advanced Member (<10 Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Well.. there are many options here. I think the best fit would be a basic system that doesn't require a whole lot of maintenance, and is user friendly.. It could help with shifting, BRAKING, and the such, but the biggest benefit would come from drivers that are already pretty quick.

If you have data, analyzing it could be time consuming. However it would be a NICE option to have!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-17-2006
jp56's Avatar
jp56 jp56 is offline
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: South Florida
Posts: 281

Gallery Images: 1
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

It would be a great option to have and there are some relatively inexpensive systems out there. As always we have to keep the cost from escalating but keep the value to the customer increasing. Tricky business. Personally, I think that there would be a definite increase in value to everyone with data acquisition. The more advanced you get as a driver the more value it would be to you in improving your driving techniques and in all respects it would be a great value to everyone in engine diagnostics and keeping the cars as equally powered as humanly possible. When a customer complains of an engine that is DOP, it should be a simple mater to prove it one way or another within a few minutes with data. I remember that in the Barber Dodge Pro Series this was done frequently. Everyone does it in Star Mazda daily. We would still need our valuable testers to test cars for handling discrepancies and safety issues.

Depending on the cost of the system, perhaps drivers could have “free” information on the dash like lap times, and latch speeds and charge a small fee to download the driving data like speed, brake, and throttle graph’s overlaid on a “target” lap to a memory stick. What do you think?
__________________
"Nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis. "
Carroll Smith
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-17-2006
Mikel Miller Mikel Miller is offline
Skippy Instructor
Rookie / Advanced Member (<10 Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

I kind of agree with jp56, but data only gives evidence of a car possibly being DOP. It's not conclusive..

the more information the better, and it would keep the testers pointed in the right direction.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-17-2006
John Greist's Avatar
John Greist John Greist is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Age: 79
Posts: 608
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

I would pay even more to see how the hell lugnutz ran a 56.5 at lrp!!!!!

How much more?

Car 49 hadn't run in any earlier practice, qualifying or race before the Memorial which preceeded the Masters race where Peter did his miraculous lap. Not sure what happened to end that run at lap 4, but maybe in Hobbesian terms, "It done blowed up." All cars are equal, but some are more equal than others.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-17-2006
Mr.Quik's Avatar
Mr.Quik Mr.Quik is offline
Mission Possible
Podium Regular / Advanced Member (50+ Posts)
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Salinas, Ca.
Posts: 63

Gallery Images: 4
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

1. I think haveing the option of data acquisition usage would be awsome, a definate concern would be as to how vulnerable the entire system is. [hypotheticly] If I were to crash hard, but opted not to have data acq. I would'nt want to pay for the damaged system. I figure if there is a place to keep the driver from harm, so is there for the box and most of its components.

2.
Quote:
Though I think most of the commercial systems out there already allow that. Might be easier to let each driver who wants their data to bring their own SD-cards - just like they do now with their timers
Perfectly stated Al

3. I dont think complexity in a system would have any added benefit to the systems that are available which would do all we wanted them to. Skip Cummings actually had an excellent data system in his DP car for the CYBERTRONICS team. They had a guy who went over the laps with him, and he improved, pretty basic, but ya, some one should get a hold of him. If I had a choice, I would go with that one.

4.Speed, Revs, brake pressure, throttle position, steering angle, lateral g's, lap and sector times. Everything that an educated driver could use to improve.

5. Dont buy a bunch of used ones that have problems and were manufactured in the 80's
__________________
Hold it flat the whole way?! I dont know, seems a little scetchy but I'll give it a try
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-17-2006
krs561 krs561 is offline
Maximizing Exit Speed / Advanced Member (10+ Posts)
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ARDSLEY, NEW YORK
Posts: 19
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Hi All, I have responded to the questions in numerical order

1. Yes, it would be great if we could access the data and interperet it for ourselves.

2. Yes, even though I do not have a laptop, I am sure that other guys do, and would like to as well.

3. As long as the data is relatively easy to interperet, then the more info the better.

4. Speed, going into corner, mid corner, and at exit of corner. Brake application in %, as well as where brake is being used. Steering input, if possible, as well as throttle %, and where throttle is being used.

5. This is great that you guys are getting input from us!!

Kevin Scott
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-17-2006
John Greist's Avatar
John Greist John Greist is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Age: 79
Posts: 608
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Data are good as long as they inform rather than confusing the user. Early on, as others observe, seat of the pants plus verbal coaching is better than numbers for almost everyone. As we get up the learning curve, capability to consume and integrate data grows.

I'd favor a flexible data acquisition system, with basic elements (e.g., lap time) always on, other data downloadable to a single system so the kids will learn it and teach me.

The advantages for testers are obviously worthwhile though Mikel's caveat is helpful.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-17-2006
birkmama's Avatar
birkmama birkmama is offline
Bavarian Berserk
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 349
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

I like data aquisition. The cost in comparison to the race car is not overly dramatic, and there is literally no wear and tear.

There is two things I would like to do with the data. Measure my own progress and consistency levels and compare to reference lap or laps.

It should also be in the school cars. The target group of SB is not only the elderly statesman driver but also the driving phenom kid (gee I need to post on the Johnny thread too) that is on his or her way up. In order to perform the training and education that a school is to provide, data are 21st century standard.

The data I would like to see are pretty much the same as in Going Faster. Throttle, brake, speed, time, steering input. Such a system should easily be doable in the triple digit price range.

I truly believe it can accelerate the learning curve. My example is LRP. One day I overheard someone say, that you can do the downhill flat. I could not believe what I heard, but I tried it too. That does not mean I went flat the next lap out, but that I set that target for myself and eventually hit that target.

While I agree with everyone says that this kind of teaching can be dangerous (it actually is - I once crashed a car at a press launch because an instructor had told me that turn 4 of some unnamed track was flat, but this story better be told another time), I believe that hard factual data remove some of the danger of unsubstantiated ambition and set clear targets.

Measuring target achievement is satisfactory.

I would not think that there needed to be a substantial - if any - price increase for the ability to capture and provide data to racers.

The question how to use the data needs more thought. This would be a learn as you go exercise. I think there should be a rough analysis available after practice sessions. For more detailed analysis, a dedicated instructor could be assigned to analyze individual driver's data in 10 minute or so sessions.

Again, the benefit for me is accelerated learning, which in the end will be more satisfactory and eventually lead to better and more competitive racing.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-17-2006
LimeRockRacer's Avatar
LimeRockRacer LimeRockRacer is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 985

Gallery Images: 8
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Data Acquisition if kept inexpensive and on the simpler side would be great.

I am concerned that SBRS is starting to look like an A La Carte Menu that requires lots of money to have as good a dinner as your tablemates.

Part of what makes the series fun and rewarding is the ability to race fairly inexpensively on a fairly equal basis. This year in particular it seems like we are being presented with more and more options to spend more money at the weekends with the hopes of getting faster and sooner than our competitors.

It was traditionally Computer Car and Video as an option, then we had lead follow, then lead follow with radios, then radios for rent with instructor feedback for another $250 per race, now we have instructors posting their personal coaching rates on the Race Group Board, video of practice with instructor feedback..etc etc etc. Where does it end?

Please don't get me wrong, I want to learn as much as possible as the next guy and like having some options. I am just fearful that we are starting to lose the warm and fuzzy feeling that we have each weekend where we race to race and learn from each other. It is starting to look like a cruise I took a few years back where all they did was hawk another product or piece of art under the disguise of entertainment to drain every possible penny out of the passengers. I will never take that cruise again.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-17-2006
mbell's Avatar
mbell mbell is offline
Moving Chicane / Regular Member (<5 Posts)
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

SB should consider offering a class that teaches data interpretation. It could either be a single class for all levels or it could be broken up into several levels (intro, intermediate, advanced) according to different levels of knowledge/experience. Also, this could be a class for anybody to enroll, not just drivers. This class might also open up a sponsorship possibility for SB to get a discount on the data systems they purchase if they agree to offer this class as an official data interpretation class of such-and-such data systems. Just throwing something out there...
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-17-2006
WatertownNewbie's Avatar
WatertownNewbie WatertownNewbie is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Watertown, CT
Posts: 999

Gallery Images: 36
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

There are a couple of potential uses for data acquisition that no one has yet touched upon.

Aside from serving as a training tool, the data could also be used to analyze what went wrong during a loss of control. Perhaps a serious lift occurred. Or power oversteer. Or a brake pedal grenade. Or a pop off of the brake. Or maybe too slow a correction. Or whatever. There have been a couple of times when I went off-course and would love to know what my feet and hands were doing during the critical moments so that I might be better prepared the next time. The same applies to some of the saves that I made.

The other potential use combines the data with a video (hello CDH!). If I could have the basic data (such as throttle, brake, and steering wheel position) super-imposed in some off-to-the-side location on my race videos, I would learn even more about what I am doing, what my patterns and tendencies are, and what really happened when I actually achieved better speed.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-17-2006
Tom jr Tom jr is offline
Testing Entry Speed / Advanced Member (25+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ma
Posts: 30
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

I have done the computer car at 4 different tracks and would favor the option to buy the data acquisition service as I do now as it is an incredible tool.


my answers,
1) yes I would like data acquisition, see above.

2)take the info with me, on my lap tap, yes. I only wish they provided a copy of the data with the computer session and I think they should. Now You have to take notes and thats it.

3)simple or complexed? just would like what we get now in computer car, brake pressure, throttle, steering , distance, and speed.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-18-2006
999's Avatar
999 999 is offline
Running Amok.
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 135
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Chris... SB is a series of equal cars, where the difference comes down to the driver. SB should afford drivers every opportunity to improve him or herself. As long as they never allow someone to pay for a better car, I'm ok with it all.

Ted... Your point is exactly what I meant when I said you should be able to pay for data after a session in which something went wrong. Could be an invaluable lesson. There have been times where I had an incident, came back to the pits and described what happened in vivid detail. Later, looking at video, I realize I wasn't totally accurate in my recollection. I imagine data would be even more enlightening.
__________________
Number nine.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-18-2006
LimeRockRacer's Avatar
LimeRockRacer LimeRockRacer is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 985

Gallery Images: 8
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Michael..I am for Data acquisition and hope it is affordable for most,and no objection to options to get faster.

My concern is that you and I may not be the typical customer from a resource standpoint and I know a lot of potential and current customers are feeling the pinch financially. I also don't want to lessen the positive experience for everyone by always feeling like they have another "extra" to pay for.

Without a good flow of customers coming in and staying the series could become a playground for fewer and fewer.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-18-2006
cdh's Avatar
cdh cdh is offline
administrationistperson
Carbon Fiber Keyboard (3,000+ Posts)

TJR Forums Contributor / Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 5,546

Gallery Images: 795
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

These systems will have to be very bulletproof, the delays they could cause would constrict already tight race schedules. How is the reliability of the system when put thru the typical SB torture test? I want data but not at the cost of delays. If they are reliable and don't add to the cost I'm for it, otherwise pay to play.
Attached Images
 
__________________
.
"Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBE

Last edited by cdh; 10-20-2006 at 03:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-18-2006
Martin Zimmerman Martin Zimmerman is offline
Martin Zimmerman
Testing Entry Speed / Advanced Member (25+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Palatine IL
Age: 61
Posts: 29
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Computer Car

I have used the Computer Car at four, maybe five tracks over the years. I have done this several times at the same track in consecutive years because I am still slow. I find this to be tremendous help. My laptimes occasionally improve, but I know what and why is the main reason I like the Computer Car. The Observers some times do not 'see' what my driving problem is. I have been given segment times, but do not know what I am doing wrong.


The time invovled is much more than a regular session. One needs to allow time for a coaching session with an Observer/Test Driver at a PC to get the full benefit.

The cost is a huge factor. Individual coaching, instrumented cars, are a huge expense.

I still listen to the Observers. Bob Ziegel made a very good suggestion for me at Mont Tremblant, that I applied and saved myself half a second a lap. I did my Driving School at Tremblant in 1979. So twenty some years later, one can still improve from a good suggestion.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 10-18-2006
AlDelattre AlDelattre is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seat 2B
Posts: 161
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

From the Dept. of Mixed Metaphors -

Interesting as most of these new car threads come down to 2 things - simplicity and cost. Hmm...might be a message there. (I'd have added "safety", but who would put a price on that.....DON'T ANSWER...)

The CHEAPEST thing to do is to keep the computer car "as-is" - it's pay-to-play, you can do it solo, or add (pay) for more coaching, lead-follow, etc. SBRS' profit margins aside, this IS an expensive hobby....so we might need to get used to it. Let everyone who wants something (their own video, timers, whizbang-GPS-gSensor telemetry) bring their own.

Now, having said that, I DO agree that the feedback (from instructors) is the most valuable. I'm still slow, but I have picked up a LOT from just listening, thinking and applying - hearing Jim Pace say "look, the car can take 1.5g, you're pushing about 1.0g, just keep it balanced and go in faster"....hmm, that's actionable.

I'd also say that I hate paying $550 for 7 laps in a computer car, but that's where I discovered a testosterone shortage in my right foot at T5 and T6 at Laguna.....I didn't believe it, but there it was....after some focus, now I can do it (almost) flat out...it also clearly illustrated my slow feet....

Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-18-2006
Racing Yoda's Avatar
Racing Yoda Racing Yoda is offline
Senior Skippy Coach
Maximizing Exit Speed / Advanced Member (10+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Hampshire/Florida
Age: 76
Posts: 14
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Some observations from someone who started racing in the pre-data era, and who has witnessed 40 years of Skip Barber activity as competitor, instructor and coach.

Data and the ability to understand it is a usefull and necessary tool to going faster these days.

Data might confuse the beginner until he/she has mastered critical skills and first principles of the line, eyes, "the proceedure" and basic braking and shifting skills.

Basic data like revs and speed have always been available and should be.

SBRS coaches are in the best position to suggest to a new or experienced competitor when he/she is ready to begin using data.

Coaching is the big difference between SBRS and most other learning programs. Observation provides big insight into what drivers are doing in the car, and when they'll benefit from data.

More complex data should be available and be integrated into the curriculum at the appropriate point for each driver. Some are ready for it in their ADV-2 or lapping day, some aren't ready (can't yet benefit) until their 10th race weekend.

A class and booklet on data, its interpretation and its uses should be available to our competitors and the competitor has the final decision on when he/she wants to start using it....just like private coaching, radio coaching, lead follow, etc.

Data is, after all, just another tool.

Speed costs money....how fast do you want to go?
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-18-2006
John Greist's Avatar
John Greist John Greist is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Age: 79
Posts: 608
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Thanks Bob. You're sure describing my experience and progression - which at times has been a series of lateral arbesques.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-19-2006
PT Cruiser's Avatar
PT Cruiser PT Cruiser is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 241
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

For me, by far and away the most useful data is to be able to lay the speed trace from my best lap in a given session on top of the speed trace of the best lap of the fastest driver in the same session, so I can see exactly where I am losing my time. Additional information such as steering input, brake levels, and throttle position are nice, but I would rather have a system that reliably gives me the speed trace vs. one that gives me all of the other channels when its working, but is also out of service 75% of the time.

Because track conditions change over the course of a day, comparing my best lap to a target lap set by an instructor at 8:30 in the morning is better than nothing, but not nearly as good as making the same comparison against the fastest lap that was recorded among all of the drivers that were out during my session.

As such, it seems to me that the real trick if data acquisition were to be built into all of the news cars would be to devise a process that:
  1. Provides a quick and foolproof method to harvest data from all of the cars that ran in a particular session as soon as they returned to the pits. This process would have to be sufficiently quick such that it would not lengthen the turnaround time between groups, and sufficiently simple so that someone trying to do the job in a hurry would not be prone to mistakes that lead to loss of data.
  2. Makes each driver’s data –along with at least one useful target lap from the same session-- readily available for download to a PC or PDA (provided by the driver) shortly after each session ends so that drivers have ample time to review their data prior to the start of their next lapping session. The download process needs to be pretty quick so that if all 15 drivers in a group are interested in data, no one driver would be stuck in line for half an hour waiting to get it.
For example, if each car had an easily removable flash memory card, a mechanic could walk the line at the end of each session, extracting the card from each car that ran that session, and replacing it with another. The cards with data would then be taken to hospitality, and loaded into a computer system there. Ideally, each car would automatically include its car number in each data file that it creates, eliminating the need to make a special effort to keep track of which card came from which car, or which file corresponds to a given driver. Once all of the cards for a given session had been loaded, a program on the computer would find the fastest lap among all of the cars participating in that session, and would create an extra file with this data (better yet, this file would contain the fastest lap from each car that participated in the session, as well as the fastest lap recorded all weekend). Drivers would then show up at hospitality with a memory stick, enter their group and car number into the computer, and would have their own data file, plus the extra file with the fastest lap data for their session, automatically loaded into their memory stick. (Alternatively, the computer in hospitality could be connected to a wi-fi network, so that any driver in the vicinity could gain access to the server and download data right off the bat). CD-ROMs preloaded with the requisite analysis software would also be available in hospitality, so that new drivers could load this software onto their computer at the time they download their first data file.

Ideally, drivers would pay a one time fee for the analysis software (to cover licensing fees to the company that wrote the software), but would then have access to their data following each session at no extra charge.

The test drivers could also use the fastest lap file from each group as a way of searching for cars that are either abnormally fast or abnormally slow, although inability to tell whether a car that appears fast was in fact drafting at the time could cloud the issue.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-19-2006
dalyduo's Avatar
dalyduo dalyduo is offline
Grand Master
Carbon Fiber Keyboard (3,000+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: location, location
Posts: 5,399

Gallery Images: 112
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

The logistics of replacing 12 - 18 memory cards per session could prove problematic... If you could Bluetooth or IR download the data from each vehicle wirelessly then it might be possible to process it that way but in all likelyhood we'd provide our own memory cards and individually download it into our own copies of the software.
__________________
You draw 'em a picture and they eat the crayons... (Duck Waddle commenting on the creative ways some people interpret driving instruction.)
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-19-2006
John Greist's Avatar
John Greist John Greist is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Age: 79
Posts: 608
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Bravo Peter! Simple, relevant, feasible - especially with Pat's Bluetooth or IR download capability. I'm with you: tachometer and lap times on the display (with warning lights for engine temp and oil pressure); downloads of laptimes and speed traces for the session (all laps in sequence) plus trace of the fastest lap of that session. Your point about changing conditions making fastest lap of the day less valuable, but OK if easily done. Way down my list would be braking, throttle, steering, etc.

You even proposed sensible pricing. Well done.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-19-2006
rf360m rf360m is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 143
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalyduo
... in all likelyhood we'd provide our own memory cards and individually download it into our own copies of the software.
I agree that this is probably the fastest, simplest and least expensive way. If you want the data it would be your responsibility to buy a memory card and the software app and provide your own pc. Then when you get in the car you'd insert your memory card which would clear the previous lap times and start recording new ones.

The mechanics already have enough to do to have to go around and change memory cards.

I also think that having bluetooth or IR will just add to expense fopr something that isn't really necessary. (Why not have car to pit telemetry so that our 'pit crew' can analyze it during the session and tell us through the newly added pit to car headsets where we can go faster?) So I'd stick with the basic, simple memory card.

But I'd only do any of this if it didn't add any cost. I think that 90% of the drivers will benefit more from simple track time rather than looking at graphs etc.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-19-2006
AlDelattre AlDelattre is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seat 2B
Posts: 161
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Guys we are quickly shifting from data acquisition to outright telemetry - there is a difference, and while valuable, gets expensive....(I'm commenting on the systems, not necessarily how much they'd help me!)

Anyway...what system does Star Mazda or FBMW use? Or even Champ Car Atlantic?
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-20-2006
PT Cruiser's Avatar
PT Cruiser PT Cruiser is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 241
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Quote:
Originally Posted by rf360m
I agree that this is probably the fastest, simplest and least expensive way. If you want the data it would be your responsibility to buy a memory card and the software app and provide your own pc. Then when you get in the car you'd insert your memory card which would clear the previous lap times and start recording new ones.

The mechanics already have enough to do to have to go around and change memory cards.

I also think that having bluetooth or IR will just add to expense fopr something that isn't really necessary. (Why not have car to pit telemetry so that our 'pit crew' can analyze it during the session and tell us through the newly added pit to car headsets where we can go faster?) So I'd stick with the basic, simple memory card.

But I'd only do any of this if it didn't add any cost. I think that 90% of the drivers will benefit more from simple track time rather than looking at graphs etc.
I agree that adding wireless to the cars is getting too complex.

My only problem with the bring your own memory card to the car and load it onto your own PC approach is that by far the most valuable aspect of having the data in the first place is comparing your speed trace to that of someone who is a lot faster than you are (or, if you are the fastest, having the satisfaction of seeing from the data just how effectively you are smoking the competiton). If the system (and I'm refering not just to the hardware in the car, but the entire process put in place to collect and distribute the data) implemented doesn't make it possible for people to get anything but their own data, then data acquistion loses about 95% of its value in the Skip Barber equal car/no setup change context (it might still retain some value in the nationals, where one could use data from successive runs to evaluate the effectiveness of setup changes).
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-20-2006
Jisu Kim's Avatar
Jisu Kim Jisu Kim is offline
Podium Regular / Advanced Member (50+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 87
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

As friendly as we are with each other, I'm not sure that the fast driver of the session should be compelled to share his/her data with the others. I think there can be an informal data exchange among drivers after each session should be enough. I also think that barring dramatic changes in track condition, same day baseline from a tester or instructor should be pretty useful to most drivers. Isn't that how computer car data is presented?
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 10-20-2006
jp56's Avatar
jp56 jp56 is offline
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: South Florida
Posts: 281

Gallery Images: 1
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

The System in my Star Mazda car is a Motec system and is about $10,000. It is that much because in has all the engine management system in it as well. All cars in the series are required to use Motec for the engine management. If you want other data systems for other than engine management you can do that. I stuck with Motec, since I like it and it is incorporated within the same computer. For sensors, we have speed, brake pressure front and rear, throttle position, steering wheel input, lat g’s and long’s, front and rear shock sensors, and lambda for the engine. There are probably more, but that’s all I look at. The Motec software is free and downloaded from the internet. AIM and PI make good systems too. I have used those in other cars like Porsche and DP. Personally, I like new Motec software the best, buts it’s personal. Most of these systems are way over the top for what I think we need in the new Skippy car. I mean, how much do you want to pay to race in a regional race?

I use an Alfano data system in my shifter kart. It has all the necessary sensors and is much cheaper. Do a web search on all these systems and you will get an idea of prices. Some of the karting systems would work well for a Skippy car.. There are some new GPS systems as well, that eliminate some of the other sensors to keep the costs down. Abhi had been researching all these systems. I believe the National Series has to have something and I think it would be cool if all the cars had something as longs as the costs are kept under control. When you’re learning and even after you’ve think you’ve learned it all good, instructor feedback from the corners is invaluable. The data will not show how far off the apex you are..

As far as sharing data with other drivers, for the National Series I like the old BDPS model that all the drivers share data with each other. It raises the level of all the drivers. This would be too time consuming for the regional races. I’m not quite sure how you would work it into regional races. Turn around time is very important. I could see 40 guys standing around with their laptops waiting for feedback. It takes time to properly analyze data. Maybe the data could be available at the end of the day. The more I write the more I ask myself, are we getting too complicated for the regional series? Don’t forget, that when you feel ready, there is no upper age limit to the National Series.

I do believe data would be a great tool for the testers in keep the engines equalized.

What does Dr Lopez think? JP ?(the younger one)

JP(The older one)
__________________
"Nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis. "
Carroll Smith

Last edited by jp56; 10-20-2006 at 10:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 10-20-2006
chsutherland's Avatar
chsutherland chsutherland is offline
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Kansas city
Posts: 434

Gallery Images: 122
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Why should we have to pay extra for the data? The current price of a race weekend is about 2500$. The warm ups don't provide much track time, and the races are only about 30 min. It is pretty expensive all ready, how much more will it be when the new car gets here? I would like to have as much data as possible, but it seems like SB should be offering it for free. How can they charge to put you in the car and charge to teach you seperately? If i wanted to pay 8k per weekend i would race in star mazda. Right now for me to get enough track time to just feel comfortable in the car it is about $5,500. Maybe i am the only guy on the site without endless funds? If the series gets much more expensive i will not be able to particapate. I have only done one race weekend, and i have spent close to $15K! It adds up fast, 3day, 2day, lead follow, lapping, practice, race, crash damage etc. It's getting to the point where i am might be better off buying my own car! I am hoping to race at sebring in dec, which means i will be close to spending 20K in one year.....for 20,000 dollars i should get free data!!! I really should. For the amount of money i have spent i should have at least gotten a free lunch.....nope $12 dollar buffet. Its a good thing i brought my own food so i could eat in the motel at nite and save money. Most of the people on this site say they prefer the old formula car, or the school car. If people don't like wings and sequential gear boxes what are they going to do with data chips? I race because it puts a huge smile on my face. I loved racing with skip, i loved meeting all the other racers, and the instructors, but i am left wondering if there will be a place for guys like me in skip barbers future? It sounds like i will be priced out?
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 10-20-2006
rf360m rf360m is offline
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 143
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

I absolutely agree with chsutherland! I don't know how many people have endless funds, but I definitely don't. That's why I keep saying that what ever SB does it should not increase the cost. If it does increase the cost then I don't think we should have it, unless the driver decides to pay for it on their own. Keep the base cost down. It is a problem because SB obviously wants to keep the high rollers happy, but how do they do that without making it impossible for the low rollers to participate as well? Yes, racing is expensive, but I think if SB can fill the less-expensive racing niche that would be great. So in the end I think data acquisition is not necessary, especially as is it pretty useless if you don't drive the car often. It just gives an advantage to peope who already have an advantage (ie they race often).
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 10-20-2006
LimeRockRacer's Avatar
LimeRockRacer LimeRockRacer is offline
Testing Mid-Corner Speed / Advanced Member (500+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 985

Gallery Images: 8
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

CHS your points are exactly what many of us have been trying to get across to the powers to be. The series needs to be able to attract and retain enthusiasts and drivers like you in order to be successful long term.

I know they are considering these points and are wary of the consequences if they do not get the formula right on the next equipment upgrade. There are some drivers that have pretty strong financial resources but I would guess the majority of drivers are trying hard to do as much in the series as they can on more limited budgets.

Forums like this need as much feedback as possible to have any impact. If you are on the sidelines on these issues, please let your voice be heard no matter what your opinion might be. The mgt. at SBRS is smart and will consider what we have to say.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 10-20-2006
Jisu Kim's Avatar
Jisu Kim Jisu Kim is offline
Podium Regular / Advanced Member (50+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 87
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

I think the question of raising costs is a bit tricky when you talk about fixed investments. If increasing costs makes the produt more attractive, a higher level of participation could drive down cost per particpant per event. This is of course notwithstanding the possiblity of increased crash damage liability because you have more expensive stuff to break.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 10-20-2006
arig's Avatar
arig arig is offline
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Woodmere, LI
Posts: 483

Gallery Images: 2
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Sutherland, I understand where you are coming from. I ran the Eastern Series in 2005 and was unable to compete in any races this season b/c of costs. I do have a shifter kart which has helped ease the pain though. Anyway, back to data, we should have something similar to what the computer car offers but not at a huge price increase. If the cost of the race weekend goes up by anything more than 10% because of the data equipment, then I wouldn't sign up for it. However, having said that, we NEED some sort of system b/c this kind of information provided is even more invaluable than the instructor feedback and I think that is saying a lot. I don't think the fastest driver in a group should have to give up his/her data((ms. landauer). why not have an instructor run a few hot laps and then have them sell the data to each racer individually? this way, each driver is gettting a great run to compare their own to and the instructors could get paid some more money. i have no idea how much a complete system for a car would be so i will not even try to speculate.

in conclusion, we really need some data but not if it prices the poorer third out of racing.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 10-20-2006
cdh's Avatar
cdh cdh is offline
administrationistperson
Carbon Fiber Keyboard (3,000+ Posts)

TJR Forums Contributor / Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 5,546

Gallery Images: 795
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Quote:
Originally Posted by arig
.....we NEED some sort of system b/c this kind of information provided is even more invaluable than the instructor feedback and I think that is saying a lot....
We have it, the Computer Car. Those that can afford it can use it, those who can't.......well, no one said it's fair. Racing has ALWAYS been about he who has the big bucks usually goes faster, that's just the way it is. Personally I can't imagine SB would do anything that would jack up the price significantly, they know.......

I am with the good Doc, let's see an econo series running school cars, no frills, damn that would be fun, sign me up! (I know the logistical problems mean we wont see this but I wanted to say it again)

We missed ya Ari
__________________
.
"Think very carefully, because if you ever start, you will never be able to leave it alone" Sir Donald Campbell, CBE
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 10-20-2006
arig's Avatar
arig arig is offline
Winning Races / Advanced Member (250+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Woodmere, LI
Posts: 483

Gallery Images: 2
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdh
We have it, the Computer Car. Those that can afford it can use it, those who can't.......well, no one said it's fair. Racing has ALWAYS been about he who has the big bucks usually goes faster, that's just the way it is. Personally I can't imagine SB would do anything that would jack up the price significantly, they know.......

I am with the good Doc, let's see an econo series running school cars, no frills, damn that would be fun, sign me up! (I know the logistical problems mean we wont see this but I wanted to say it again)

We missed ya Ari
thank you doug, but i would bet that i missed you guys more! I have used the computer car but i really think that $500 for 10 laps is a lot. i think that a driver being able to look at their best and worst few laps from every session would be really helpful. i understand that you can do whatever you want in terms of data if we owned our own cars and that you pay for the convenience of an arrive/drive series, but i just think that for the money we should be able to get something more. sorry i went off on a tangent. in my opinion, the computer car is not a real solution to the data issue. i remember at daytona, people were waiting all day to get into the computer car so there does seem to be a demand for the information and help. as it is, i think everyone should have video cameras on their car and be able to go over the tape at night in their motel rooms. i wish mike marino would offer a service like that. i guess i just don't believe that seat time is the complete solution to becoming a better driver. for sure, it helps a lot, but knowing what you are doing wrong by comparing it to how faster drivers run also helps a lot. that is not to say that someone running 1:06 at lrp will suddenly drop to a :58 b/c of data and certainly don't suggest that they try it either. just because you are braking at 5 board but you can really brake at the 3 board, doesn't mean that you should all of a sudden brake at the 3 board.

do you really know when you are hitting the brake based off a reference point like a board? even at the speeds we do, distance goes by quickly. so by the time you see the 3 board let's say, and then think "ok, brake" you might already be at the 2 board. i just want people to be able to compare exactly what they are doing to exactly what a faster driver is doing, and i think that will make someone a better driver and isn't that what skip barber is all about.

i'm sorry, a little sleepiness coupled with a past argument has gotten me to write like i talk. my point again is, data in every car is good but only til a certain price point and that point to me is more than 10% of the weekend.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 10-21-2006
999's Avatar
999 999 is offline
Running Amok.
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 135
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Test day in a Star Mazda... ~$10,000
Race weekend in Star Mazda... ~$25,000
Race weekend in Grand Am Cup... ~$15,000

I could go on.

None of those series offer instructor feedback or a spare car if you wreck yours. None offer a decent insurance policy if you wreck. None have truly evenly matched cars and the friendships that exist at Skippy. None offer extra lappping, practice, or computer car.

Again, I could go on.

What do they have that Skippy doesn't? Full fields. Over 70 per weekend in cup. Over 30 in Mazda.

Racin' ain't cheap. This doesn't mean jack the price up astronomically. But SB has to compete. The balance is How many part time racers do we lose? vs How many full time racers do we keep or add?

I wouldn't want to be making the decisions.
__________________
Number nine.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 10-21-2006
999's Avatar
999 999 is offline
Running Amok.
Entry Speed Demon / Advanced Member (100+ Posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 135
Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

Just read this email from John Mayes who is running in Star Mazda this weekend:

3 red flags during first practice broke the momentum a bit, and that's my excuse for not doing better than high 26's. Halfway throug 2nd session and my engine blew. Best lap, 1:26.1. Not exactly steller, but w/in the 107% rule. The biggest concern is that my group will qual 1st on a slow, slick track, sp the challenge of staying w/in 107 will be much higher tomorrow. I'll have to kick it into the 1:25's at a minimum, but at least know several places I should be able to do that...right after I get my gonades out from my suitcase. I know I brought them, but sure haven't found them yet.

More tomorrow...J

[SIZE=2]


So... red flags that further reduce your drive time. Blown engines that cause you to lose drive time. And, a 107% rule that could keep you off the grid.

All for the price of nearly a full season at Skippy. You do the math.
__________________
Number nine.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmark This Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): Skippy Components Survey #8 of 8 - COST sydude Race Series Discussions 68 12-11-2006 08:27 AM
Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): Skippy Components Survey #7 of 8 - GEARBOX Gerardo Race Series Discussions 35 11-22-2006 11:24 PM
Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): Skippy Components Survey #6 of 8 - IN-CAR VIDEO Gerardo Race Series Discussions 19 11-07-2006 10:31 PM
Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): Skippy Components Survey #5 of 8 - IN-CAR RADIO Gerardo Race Series Discussions 19 10-31-2006 11:13 PM
Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): New Skippy Car Components Survey #3 of 8: SAFETY FEATURES Gerardo Race Series Discussions 46 10-16-2006 12:37 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:08 PM.


TeamJuicyRacing.com's fast new hosting service has been generously provided by ZeroLag Communications :: 1-877-ZERO-LAG

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2017 - Team Juicy Racing / Team Juicy, LLC