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Old 10-01-2006
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New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Welcome to the New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8, presented by Sy and myself. This week's topic is TIRES. Let's get right to it.

As with previous solicitations for feedback, lets keep a nice balance of positive and negative comments. It's okay to point out shortcomings with the existing tires, but please offer ideas to make improvements.

Let's also be conscious of how grateful and thankful we are of BFGoodrich for their considerable tire sponsorship. There has been a huge effort with tire testing at the parent company's proving grounds and at race tracks over the years that led to the selection of the tires we now use. Please be sensitive to the people who make this happen for us.


2007 Skippy Car Survey #2 of 8 - TIRES

1. Do you prefer treads or slicks? Please tell us why.
2. Which series or event, if any, should use slicks?
3. If your chosen series had slicks, would you prefer a harder compound or softer compound? Keep these factors in mind:
Harder tire compound: Last longer, resists flat spots, has less grip
Softer tire compound: Wears out sooner, flat spots easily, has more grip
4. Any other comments?

This thread will be closed to further replies just before midnight on Sunday, October 8th. The next topic will then be introduced.

Thanks again!
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Old 10-01-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I just completed my frist race weekend and finally have a little bit more to contribute to the site. The tires didn't really seem to matter much, i think the radials were a pretty good tire. They were pretty forgiving and stood up pretty well. Make no mistake about it, we beat the ever living life out of those tires and cars. Both put up well. Some people complained endlessly about the tires but i don't think it makes much difference. At the end of the day on the last day, two lap records were set in the memorial race. The tires and cars by that point had about ten days of relentless punishement. First the national series, then 2 day schools and regional racing the next weekend. The guys and gals that were consistent and fast just drove what they had. Dr. Greist won a lot of races this weekend by being very consistent, very smooth and as a result was very fast. He took care of what he had and it paid off for him. Not to mention we weren't charged extra for destroying tires and most of us were guilty. I don't see lots of extra time in the day for countless tire changes either, and we kept the mechanics plenty busy. If we had a softer tire it might create more problems than it solves. For nationals it would seem a slick would be better it just kinda makes sense for that series. So i guess its a question of how many tires do ya feel like changing in a day, and is there enough time, and can the mechanincs possibly keep up with all the destroyed/broken cars and change four tires on 30 cars twice a day? That seems like an awful lot to ask out of 10 or so guys.
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Old 10-01-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

To me the treaded tire has advantages over the slick tire.

It works rain or shine, no need to change it when the track gets wet. This saves lots of time during busy race days.

It is more durable than a soft rubber slick tire. Again time and money saved.

As I have said for years, the treaded tire gives me better feedback. I think the slicks might give better grip, but when they lose it they lose it in a hurry. The treaded tire seems to go away more slowly. (of course I still managed to hit a wall this year, but it took me longer to do it).

Just so you know, I worked for a major tires company for 12 years as a rubber chemist. I actually have some knowledge of the subject. In case you're wondering, the specific gravity of carbon black is 1.80, zinc oxide is 5.57, natural rubber (isoprene) is 0.92.

OLDMAN
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Old 10-01-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I ran on treaded tires at my first race weekend at Mid Ohio and loved them. They seemed to provide plenty of grip for such a light car. As oldman pointed out, they were extremely predictable and communicative. There was no question as to when the G-Forces were starting to slide - SQUEEEEAAAALLLLLLLL!!!! They gave me plenty of time to correct whatever problems I caused. Furthermore, the tread pattern made it very easy to tell when the tire was slowing down and/or coming to a stop, so I could almost subconsciously modulate the brake pedal before lockup occured. I'm not sure I could do that nearly as easily with a slick, as it would be more difficult to discern when it was actually slowing down and stopping.

That being said, I prefer slicks for obvious reasons. More grip is always better, in my opinion, but I definitely see the disadvantages. It would be pointless to run slicks (softer compound) at any races except the Nationals, and even then it's a stretch. As people have already pointed out, "swapping" the slicks for treaded tires when it rains is tons of work for the mechanics. Honestly, I think everything is perfect just the way it is: use G-Forces for everything but the Nationals.
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Old 10-01-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Its like this: if you are going to put wings on the cars and give them sequential transmissions because that is what is most relevant to cars one will drive after / are what is currently out there, then you need to put a relatively consistent but softer slick tire on there that requires looking after. Looking after means both not abusing them with lock up and sliding, but also making decisions when to use the harder than other times.
(and remember kids, my opinion is the only one that matters.)
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I think the current treaded tires work extremely well. They have a couple of advantages over the slick tires in that they give better feedback when you are near the edge. The treaded tire, which was used several seasons ago, gave more grip, but gave up much less warning about when it was going to let go. The treaded tires give almost as much grip, but give a lot more warning about when they are going to slide. They are also extremely durable, and very importantly can be raced in both wet and dry conditions. This means less time spent changing tires, and less tires needed to be brought to the track, so hopefully less cost involved.

So I'm all for the treaded tires.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Slicks are faster.... But I think that 4 things put the treads on top.
1- No need to change tires and delay a 5 group weekend further.
2- No need to carry 2 types (slicks/treads).
3- Way more predictable.
4- Flat spots can be burned down SOME to help with treads.

Remember the school cars... they slide a LOT and are a ball to drive.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

These comments are offered from the perspective of a sportsman with 10 race weekends who has driven A. On the old Michelin treads for school training and first couple of races, B. One event on the Michelin slicks, C. Several events on the first generation of the BF Goodrich treads and D. Several events on the current generation of BF Goodrich treads.

1. Do you prefer treads or slicks? Please tell us why.

I prefer the current BF Goodrich treaded tires because they offer good grip and linear feedback in both wet and dry conditions that feels similar to the old Michelin treaded tire that most instructors seemed to like and I learned on. These current BFG tires have ultimate dry lap times close to or better than the old Michelin slicks used the year before last.

2. Which series or event, if any, should use slicks?

The National kids are the only group that should be considered for slicks. The added cost and logistical burden only make them practical for series where drivers don't share cars. And the National kids should probably know how to deal with the nuance of slicks since any series they move into will be run on slicks as well.

3. If your chosen series had slicks, would you prefer a harder compound or softer compound? Keep these factors in mind:
Harder tire compound: Last longer, resists flat spots, has less grip
Softer tire compound: Wears out sooner, flat spots easily, has more grip


Definitely the harder compound. In my early race weekends I victimized the poor guy sharing my car several times by grenading the tires into serious flapitude and now that my brake control is better I've had the flapping favor returned by my car partner a few times. No way sportsman drivers should be anywhere near a soft compound tire. Personally I think the current BF Goodrich treads are good enough that Champ group doesn't need slicks either because they are achieving lap times equal to or greater than the old slicks.

4. Any other comments?

My one opportunity to drive on slicks produced the fastest times I'd recorded to that date (at LRP) and the biggest crash as well. I'd been told that the slicks had more grip but also gave less warning when they gave up and I learned about that in a very expensive way. Not blaming the tires for my driving error but I was steep in the car control learning curve and the slicks were not of great value given my 2nd or 3rd race weekend skill level.

Apparently others felt the same way as there were so many crashes during the lapping and practice days that week that all cars were put on treads for the remainder of the weekend. Very soon after that day all regional events went to treads only and the next season BFG re-engineered the tires so that the treads were as fast as the old slicks on dry pavement and had exceptional grip and control in the wet as well. What's not to like?
With slicks, if there is a hint of rain forecast the mechanics have the added burden of switching out all the tires on top of their regular duties.

PS. I liked the BFG's so much I bought a set for my street car (replacing Pirelli P7000 SuperSports) and have not been disappointed. They perform well, make less noise than the Pirelli's and offer high performance at a value shopper price. ($75 per tire from the Tire Rack)
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I think all Skippy cars should be on treads except for the National Championship cars.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

1. Prefer slicks.
2. Only Nationals and maybe Masters' Nationals should use slicks.
3. Softer. If you're going to have slicks, they may aswell be proper slicks suited to the length of our races. The softer slicks will get up to temperature more quickly and provide more opportunities to play with your lines.

The Michelin pseudo-slicks that we were using earlier were as much a marketing gimmick as the wings that we have now. They weren't hard slicks, they were off-the-scale hard compared to slicks typically used in sprint races.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I believe the treaded tires make the most sense for the Regional Sportsman Series as others have previously stated for the same reasons
1. they are more forgiving and many of us are not at an experience level to understand their limits as well as our own
2. We run in all weather conditions and the treaded tires work well in both . This not only makes sense in terms of downtime in the pits during race weekends should conditons change but also possibly reduce our costs or not serve as a means of increased costs as only one style of tire needs to be inventoried as opposed to two
3. The Nationals are at a different level and that series serves as a stepping stone for them to move up. Thier cars should offer slicks as it represents what they'll be faced with in future series
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

3-Day School - Stock street tires.

Adv2+ and Regionals - Treaded. Just like now....SO many good reasons - logistics, cost, consistency, flexibility. However, I'd be curious about how much difference there is between a "street" G-Force (current tire) and some of the hot (soft, shaved, etc) Yokohamas, et al that are out there - assuming DURABILITY is paramount.

Nationals - let them have slicks - however, someone once wrote that matching the tire to the chassis is MUCH more important that optimizing grip in a package that can't take it....

One (hybrid) suggestion - if SBRS can offer slicks (hard and soft) on "Testing Days" or even in "Computer Car" sessions (for an extra charge)...or even on (not crowded) Lapping days - might feed people's needs to try slicks. Personally - I'd like to TRY them, then again, Pat's post about the joys of slicks gives me pause...

Last point - am curious about how much SBRS pays for the tires - is this a critical cost component of the weekend? One would think so, not sure what the BFG sponsorship package is.

If so, one direction is clear...go cheaper. If they are somewhat subsidized, might be good to "upgrade" -especially if we save money by not destroying wings, crash boxes, nose nipples, A-arms, uprights, etc. in the new car....

Oldman - question - what's your preferred/recommended durometer specs for an R/T? Should we insist on pyrometer data after each session?
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

BFGoodrich Tires | Tire Catalog | Sports Car

I definitely like treaded tires, but why dont we try a different type? i cant imagine these tire we use now are our best option for treaded tires. Slicks on nationals, everyone else BETTER treaded tires.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

MY vote is for treaded performance tires. Thank you B.F. Goodreich for such a good tire. They wear like iron, have MORE than reasonable performance, and we buy them for our own cars when we torture them on the track. They also make very cool noises when cornering at the limit
Obviously the regional series, school cars, and oldsters division (I am one so I can say it) should all be on treads. We would never get a full day in at places like LRP or The Glen where it rains frequently.
I can only give one good reason for having slicks on our cars....
THEY LOOK COOL ! Maybe we could overcome this by having only one car shod in slicks for photo shoots for our family and friends.

Thank you B.F.Goodrich. We ALL sincerely appreciate your involvment in this school. We ALL love torturing your product.. Cant you just feel the love?
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Perhaps we can get the definitive word from some of our estimed instructors but I was given the impression that a full range of BFG products were tested and the G-Force Sport in its current configuration best serves the R/T 2000. Can anyone turn on the lights for us about how much if any specific work was done with BFG in developing the G-Force Sport for the R/T?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobyru00
BFGoodrich Tires | Tire Catalog | Sports Car

I definitely like treaded tires, but why dont we try a different type? i cant imagine these tire we use now are our best option for treaded tires. Slicks on nationals, everyone else BETTER treaded tires.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I'm probably just restating previous answers but here are my thoughts.

1. Do you prefer treads or slicks? Please tell us why.

Treads. I believe that treaded tires give more feedback/warning enabling more response time to provide correction. Also, it's easier to pick up front lockup. Treads will deal with debris, dirt, gravel better than slicks. No doubt, changing back and forth to accomodate varying conditions in a race day that switches between rain and full dry would be a logistical nightmare.

2. Which series or event, if any, should use slicks?

Nationals. It would seem as though they would benefit from the experience of running slicks if this is truly going to be a stepping stone program. While I think plenty of the Championship/Masters group drivers would love to run slicks, are capable of leveraging the benefits of slicks while dealing with the challenges, and want the experience, I think it would present a logistical challenge given the fact that us Sportsman and all of the hotshots share cars.

3. If your chosen series had slicks, would you prefer a harder compound or softer compound? Keep these factors in mind:
Harder tire compound: Last longer, resists flat spots, has less grip
Softer tire compound: Wears out sooner, flat spots easily, has more grip

Say this were phased in for the regional race weekends and for the Championship group, it seems prudent to start with the hard compound. I think the fast fall-off of a soft combined with unforgiving performance once that deterioration occurs would be too much for the group to contend with to make it a progressive learning "curve" experience.

4. Any other comments?

I initially thought the nationals should run a single compound (hards to create a learning curve experience). However, to get these potential future professionals the experience they want, maybe giving them a choice (you have to run softs one day and hards one day, your choice which race day). This results in them making decisions regarding weather, track conditions, etc.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalyduo
Perhaps we can get the definitive word from some of our estimed instructors but I was given the impression that a full range of BFG products were tested and the G-Force Sport in its current configuration best serves the R/T 2000. Can anyone turn on the lights for us about how much if any specific work was done with BFG in developing the G-Force Sport for the R/T?
Pat,
Along with other testers, I did some early testing of the line of BFGoodrich products. Here's a short summary. Keep in mind, I am not a tire engineer, so these are driver comments in the order that I drove them over a period of several months.

Traction T/A - Super fun to drive, but tread durability was slightly behind the g-Force Sport. Tire squirm gave the car rotation of historic proportions; some drivers loved it, some thought it was a bit much. Rain performance was superior.

g-Force T/A KDW - Everyone loved the tread pattern design for its looks. But did it match the R/T 2000 chassis? Not as well as the g-Force Sport. Rain performance was good, but below the Traction T/A and the g-Force Sport. The KDW was somewhat less durable than the g-Force Sport, and about the same durability as the g-Force T/A KD. In my opinion, it was less fun to drive than the Traction T/A and g-Force Sport. It would go over the edge similar to the old Michelin slick tire.

g-Force T/A KD - BFGoodrich markets this tire as their premiere street tire. I have seen it put to very good use in amateur autocross events on larger sports cars like the Corvette. However, it didn't match the R/T 2000 chassis as well as the g-Force Sport or the Traction T/A. Rain performance was behind all the other tires we tested, largely because the tread depth is shallow to enhance dry performance. Dry traction was similar to the g-Force T/A KDW, especially when it went over the edge. Durability was less than the g-Force Sport, and about the same as the g-Force T/A KDW.

g-Force Sport - Best matches the R/T 2000 chassis. When we finally got these tires in for testing, we were instantly happy. Durability was excellent. They were softer than the old Michelin Pilot XGT H4, and the V4 we used to use, and nearly as durable as those Michelin's despite the softer compound. Lap times are indeed faster, but we would need to do a back-to-back test with tires that are no longer in production to really know. Rain performance was better than all but the Traction T/A, but close enough to the Traction T/A that testers were happy.

Many thanks to BFGoodrich and our Marketing staff for helping us find this great product line.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Well ok then, and thats why i am still a newby.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

What I would like to see is a new wheel. A light weight, single lug wheel that is the same size front and rear. The current rear wheel/tire weigh about 35lbs, and the fronts are a little less. Just think of the possible performence gains by getting rid of some of the rotating mass. Plus, a single lug wheel would cut down on the time it takes to change tires.

I would also like the same size tire front and rear. This way if someone flatspots a front tire, we can swap it for a rear tire insted of throwing it away. And this cuts down on the number of tires Skip has to haul to every race.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

ok, this one is important to me. I do not like the treaded tire. as a guy who's only done lappings for the last seven years, my opinion may be limited. I enjoyed the slick tire over the treaded tire. i think with the slick tire the ability to find the edge or limit was usually easier and more consistent. these tires now involve so much counter steering and correcting it seems more like a rally car than anything else. my one and only crash was with the treads. these treads seem better than the michelin's but just dont quite do it for me. for lappings I miss the old slick even though it wasnt that good of one. I think the treaded tire takes a chunk of skill out of the whole game. with a slick u can break harder but u have to break smarter also. I know some people would run them into the ground and abuse them but that doesnt seem fair to the others who took care of and enjoyed them.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Hi Gerardo,

I have done SBRS race weekends since 1994. I have raced on every tire we have had since then- Goodyear GS-C, Eagle GA, Michelin Pilot, BFG GForce as well. The best one without a doubt was the Michelin/BFG slick that was used in 2004-2005. This gave grip and control propotinate to one another. If they were abused, then they would develop flat spots, so a harder compound would be better.

If it is possible to have these on the car, that would be great.

Thanks,

Kevin Scott
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Quote:
Originally Posted by chsutherland
I just completed my frist race weekend and finally have a little bit more to contribute to the site. The tires didn't really seem to matter much, i think the radials were a pretty good tire. They were pretty forgiving and stood up pretty well. Make no mistake about it, we beat the ever living life out of those tires and cars. Both put up well. Some people complained endlessly about the tires but i don't think it makes much difference. At the end of the day on the last day, two lap records were set in the memorial race. The tires and cars by that point had about ten days of relentless punishement. First the national series, then 2 day schools and regional racing the next weekend. The guys and gals that were consistent and fast just drove what they had. Dr. Greist won a lot of races this weekend by being very consistent, very smooth and as a result was very fast. He took care of what he had and it paid off for him. Not to mention we weren't charged extra for destroying tires and most of us were guilty. I don't see lots of extra time in the day for countless tire changes either, and we kept the mechanics plenty busy. If we had a softer tire it might create more problems than it solves. For nationals it would seem a slick would be better it just kinda makes sense for that series. So i guess its a question of how many tires do ya feel like changing in a day, and is there enough time, and can the mechanincs possibly keep up with all the destroyed/broken cars and change four tires on 30 cars twice a day? That seems like an awful lot to ask out of 10 or so guys.
OK, my first post:

I shudder to think of what might have happened in Group 5 at Turn 5 at Road America the day before yesterday if they/we were running on slicks. As it was six cars spun at the same spot at the same time in a sudden downpour - but with no contact. Much as I like the idea of slicks, treaded tires make sense for regional races.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

There are obviously several criteria as there were for the wings question.
1. For optical reasons (=marketing gimmick) slicks are premiere choice.
2. Under logistical aspects slicks make only sense, if the new car has a center wheel lock, which would cut down changing times substantially.
3. Performance should be beyond street tires obviously.
4. Controllability and communication should preferably be tailored to a series, where one car is going to be shared by several racers, ie they should tell when they go from friction to slide and allow for slow handed low eyed recoveries.
5. Cost, durability: from different posts (and Oldman ) I feel, that anything that can be done to control race weekend costs would be highly appreciated.

Since most of these criteria are best fulfilled by a treaded tire, this would be my vote.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I'd like to see slicks on centerlock wheels as the default application for every activity except 3-day schools, unless rain is forecast for the majority of the weekend. If rain threatens an otherwise dry weekend, those tires and wheels can be changed quickly.

I much prefer the way the slick work compared to the treads, plus the benign handling characteristics of the new car compared to the R/T render many of the complaints about the old slicks on the R/T obsolete. Plus, they're MUCH sexier.
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Old 10-02-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

The current BFG Treads are a great balance for the regional series. They seem to perform well as compared to the Michelins we were using previously. Kudos to BFG for the testing and support they have given us.

My biggest complaint is the fact that we seem to not have enough tires on hand for the race weekends when tires become flat spotted and worn. The SBRS racing experience is further compromised when you drive a car with extreme flat spots or wear on the tires.

I am surprised the ever aging OLDMAN did not mention cost! The cost of inventorying, transporting and changing from slicks to treads and back just add to the cost and inefficiencies to the series. Treads offer a good balance.

While the slicks are much sexier and potentially faster I do not think the cost factors and the "unforgiving" nature of the slick for the average regional driver are worth the switch.
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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Nationals need slicks. As a series for up-and-coming drivers, they need to at least have the same look of other cars. If a driver leaves nationals to a higher powered car like Star-Mazda, driving on slicks is yet another thing to learn that he won't be used to. I would prefer a softer tire, but it obviously needs to be hard enough to last the weekend.

As for the regional series, it's a difficult decision. I prefer driving on slicks because you need to predict what will happen with the car more than on treads. However, with 5 group weekends, the last thing Nick-Nick wants is to have to worry about getting all the groups in because a sudden downpour came in and the mechanics had to change tires on every single car. I think for this reason, treads are better for the regionals.
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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I like the G Force, and since track records keep falling running them I think their performance is more than up to the task. I ran the old slicks and think the pro's do not outweigh the cons for us amateur drivers.

Treads on everything except Kiddie National, for Old Guys National I would leave it to them to decide. Would slicks for the Masters Nat increase the cost of that series?

And since the 'sexiness factor' is mentioned as important with wings and slicks, well I guess I am just getting old but I like the look of the treads on the R/T, I really think they look great, could be that vintage side of me creeping in again. On the new car they may look out of place though.....
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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I agree that the National Championships - both of them - need to be on slicks. Perhaps the super high performance "-R" treads would be a good compromise for the regionals, though with that tire rains will still be needed.
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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I have just read all the posts to date, and the consensus seems to be for treaded tires for all activities up to and including Masters National. The ideal is a treaded tire that maintains its charactaristics through its usable life, resists flatspoting, is acceptable in the wet, predictable and provided by a tire sponsor at little or no cost. Current BFGs seem to fill the bill.

Of course a complete tire test should be conducted on the new car once one is chosen, and the commiytment made to replace the fleet.

I agree with the consensus and would like to add this; the purpose of all SBRS racing schools, advanced activities and race series is to help our drivers develop their skills and abilities. At the level at which we operate, especially in race series, a tire that stays consistant is a key component to the system of providing equal performance and similar handling and braking cars. While slicks are a fact of "real" racing, the logistical compromises involved in switching back and forth between slicks and treads are not in keeping with our mission until you get to the National level, where they have dedicated cars and crew (and higher attendant costs).
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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

In over 25 years the series has tried to run slicks two times (M&H? & Michelin) and both time the obvious advantages of treads standout and we go back to treads. There really is no choice here. Logistics, consistency, performance, driveability, variying track conditions, etc...TREADS. One size nondirectional front & rear would be brillant if able.

BFG decides which tire we run and largely determines the size based on production and availablity, not Skip Barber. If the sponsor is not happy then no one is happy.

The National Series would do well with a proper racing slick with a life/durability of one weekend or about 3 hrs. This single change could make the current RT 2000 many (3-10) seconds faster at each track depending of the track of course. Additionally the drivers would be better prepared to move up in class if/when they do to Mazda/BMW/FC or whatever. Add about $1500-2000 to the weekend cost when this happens.

Thanks for listening.
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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Bob Z and JP's post sum it up perfectly...what is the best option within the confines of reality.

Can't wait for the thread on draft-ability of the new car. For myself if drafting doesn't improve to at least the level of the school cars nothing has been accomplished to increase the "FUN" factor.

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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Gerardo and Sy,

Haven't we heard and read enough about tires? Bob and JP summed it up nicely. How about moving on to topic #3?
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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I would prefer treaded tires for cost and safety reasons. You would have to change slicks when it rains. Treaded tires would mean less cornering speed and fewer serious accidents I would expect.
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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Greist
Gerardo and Sy,

Haven't we heard and read enough about tires? Bob and JP summed it up nicely. How about moving on to topic #3?
Sorry John, but Topic 3 will be posted on October 8th as promised in Post #1.

I am confident there are a few more opinions and ideas out there. Someone always comes up with a side item I never thought of, which makes this forum fantastic.

Thanks again to everyone for posting your comments on Tires. Please keep those posts coming. There are more of you out there with something to say. We are listening.
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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES



They don't look like slicks to me........
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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

With only 5 regional race weekends under my belt as far as my racing experience, I have nothing else to compare other then the treaded tires I have used. I LOVE em. BUt Im new Id love anything.

So my opinion would be for all the reasons JP mentioned to keep treads for regionals but slicks for all nationals.
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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

But Seriously Folks....just in case I win the lottery and come back to play....

The best tire I ever drove on was the hard M & H slick. They seemed to work even when worn down to the cord. Race cars like proper slick racing tires that work when they get hot. There was even the debate as to did they decrease damage due the car losing speed before going off the track - although maybe more car to car accidents (some might remember the Bryar "Skip, are they any cars left?" weekend.)

However, the Mid-Ohio - rain, dry, rain, dry, rain... weekend (1980? 82?) proved the value of a treaded tire (Anyone for Klebers? Bob? Carl?)

It also proved the value of the right tire - nothing against the company, wrong tire - wrong application, but the Gxxdyxxr street tires we had as rains that year didn't seem to work as rains or drys..... The BFGs we had in 1984 were a perfect match for the cars of the time.

The suspension geometry should be designed for the tire, or else you run around looking to find a tire that is a compromise. And contrary to conventional wisdom, in this case size does matter (roll centers etc.) Find someone who has an SCCA Spec Racer (Ford) and how much testing and modification goes on every time they switch tires.

Shocks and springs enter in and all of a sudden it is not just slapping a tire on a car. Hopefully, this can be done before the new car is finalized.

ChrisZ
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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Well, to add something new to this topic, and make the car more fun to drive, I recommend we use slicks in the front, and treads on the back.

Actually though, I agree with what has been said above.

1. Do you prefer treads or slicks? Please tell us why.
I prefer slicks, more grip, more like a real race car, plus makes it look cooler!

2. Which series or event, if any, should use slicks?
Only Nationals, and they should use Soft Slicks. With so many cars in the Regionals, too much time to change, and too many tires to carry for them to use Slicks. Plus with drivers sharing cars, one driver may flat spot a tire for another! The National drivers need to learn how to drive with Soft Slicks.

4. Any other comments?
I definitely think Front and Rear Tires/Wheels should be the same, and Single Lug Nut for ease of changing tires.
Also, there should be an option to try out Slicks during lapping days, or on the Computer Car.

Have a happy. . .
Vinay
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  #39  
Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I think we need to start a winter series in the northern climbs. We might as well start with a Winter Northeast Regional! Tire of choice...Blizzaks with studs! Think of the possibilities!
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Old 10-03-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

It might be fun to have the winter series in Mont Tremblant. I would much rather spend my winter there than in Sebring.
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Old 10-04-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

For something different, and to target a new market, what about using some 20in Ultra Low Profile Spinners for wheels? And then replace the rear wing with 3 18in Subs to hear some more deep bass out of the motor!

Anyone quick with photoshop to see what an R/T 2000 would like like with these wicked mods?

Have a happy. .
Vinay
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  #42  
Old 10-04-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Great idea Vin... And we'll start a new MTV cable show called "Pimp my Skippy Ride..."

Gee Doug... I wonder?
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Old 10-04-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

So is the question a 'wishlist' or 'reality based'?

When I started in the series, we used slicks. I loved them and would like to go back to them. Primarily because they demanded more respect. I felt they taught more about racecraft. Not to mention they look much cooler. (sorry Doug... what are you thinking?)

That said, for all of the reasons mentioned below, it makes very little if any sense for the Regionals to run on slicks. Too much inventory, not enough time for changes, too many destroyed tires, etc.

Nationals should run on slicks... again, for the reasons mentioned before. Masters should also run on slicks... which likely means having its own fleet ala the Kiddies. That would cost more, but I think it would be worth it. I think the typical Master is running with different objectives... i.e. a serious and affordable race series... the school aspects are fabulous, but secondary. Look at where the Masters go when they 'tire' (pun intended) of Skippy. Skippy needs to do something dramatic to retain and reclaim these guys. Patterson, Pew, Saville are gone. Ludwig and Mayes seem to have a toe in the Mazda waters.

'School' cars should have treads. 'Real' race cars should have slicks... just look at any other series. What would happen to Star Mazda if the spec tire became a treaded BFG?? So what about the guy (or gal that wants a 'real' race car and doesn't qualify for Masters or want to run with the kids?? Hmmm.

Maybe the Champ group and Masters should share a car and run on slicks. Sportsman run treads. Make a cost differential if necessary. Would be a reason to 'graduate' and move up. (Are run groups the subject of another poll/thread??)

Back to the present... Unlike size, tires matter! I think the current treads are excellent tires. Thanks to the testers and the sponsors for finding the right package. Lord knows we had some BAD combinations over the last few years.

Was it LRR that mentioned tire availability? This is a big issue. From what I hear, Skippy 'ran out' of tires at Mt T and RA this past weekend, and only changed the worst tires. People (Duerson, Ludwig, etc) were told they couldn't change flat spotted tires. That sucks!

Assuming anyone with influence is listening to this thread... thanks for considering our opinions.
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Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

As an interesting sidenote, the Star Mazda Series has had a similar tire choice issue of its own. This year and years prior, the choice of tire has been a bias-ply slick. It is a very soft tire that corners at mind-bending speeds, but the bias-ply construction has some quirks.

For one, when the tires come out of the mold, the diameters are not the same. They can vary as much as an inch! Additionally, the tire diameter grows when the tire is first used. The old NASCAR term of finding a perfectly matched set refers to this diameter inconsistency. Radial tires are identical out of the mold and do not vary. Why does this matter? With inconsistent diameters you get inconsistent ride height. The engineers pull their hair out, and wish we had radials.

The counterpoint is less obvious. Why does Mazda stay on bias-ply? Well, its easier to catch the car when a driver loses control, a characteristic favored by half of the field (gentlemen and non-career motivated drivers). Additionally, the cars rotate more in the corners, making a better show for the fans and tv. When the series leadership comes to that time each year of deciding to stay with bias-ply or go with radials, the show and the steady year-in-year-out customer has won and the bias-ply tires have stayed.

Thanks everyone for your comments on our Skippy tires. A very nice variety of viewpoints. Anyone else?
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Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Quote:
Originally Posted by 999
Not to mention slicks look much cooler. (sorry Doug... what are you thinking?)
I mentioned that vintage side of me was coloring my opinion. I think vintage formula cars look great, 1960's and early 70's in particular. Back then race tires were treaded, slicks were introduced to F1 racing in 1972. The R/T with treads has a hint of that look, sorta, well a little.....

I should photoshop an R/T with vintage bodywork. It would eliminate the need for wings, which would make crash damage less expensive and it would draft well, which would make the good Dr. happy
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Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I echo what Gerardo says about the Star Mazda tires. I have been lobbying Star Mazda for the last two years to switch to radials. I actually cannot find anyone, driver or team, that likes the bias plyís. The Barber Dodge Pro car, although slower than the Mazda, with its radials was a much more difficult car to drive, but much more rewarding and better training. The tires sizes vary so much in the Star Mazda Series that given our choices of two gear stacks, the variable of a different tire size gives you in effect an intermediate gear stack. For example, long stack with small tires is my favorite. The other big problem, as Gerardo mentioned, was the difficulty in engineering with bias plyís. Iíve lost up to 8 mm of rake while the tries grew. Some engineers like us to first scrub the tries in before qualifying and get the growth done, but this presents problems as well. The best lap on sticker tires at Sebring, would be the 3rd lap. After that, its downhill. At Miller the tires could be at optimum grip at the end of your out lap. So do you go out and qualify with a known ride height on scrubs, or an unknown with stickers? Most go with the stickers because grip can mask some engineering problems and the engineering problems might not show up for a few more laps.

I digress and this is not the Star Mazda Forum, so back to the Skippy tires. JP and Bob sum it up best. Personally, I had a chance to drive the treads at Sebring last year and I thought they were a blast. The Nationals would be best served by a stickier slick depending on cost. Of course anyone would be always welcome to race in the Nationals to race on the slicks. Just my opinion

Great threads, Gerardo. Keep them coming.
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Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Not to hijack this thread but the Star Mazda mechanics must pull their hair out chasing these irregularities, sheesh, what a pain. Must be a sweet deal the series gets on these tires
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

I was wondering what other schools offer, the ones I looked at were

American Racing Acad - formerly Daly
Bondurant
Bertil Roos
Russell

All of them have treads in schools, Russell and Roos have race series and it appears Russell runs treads and slicks, Roos treads in their races.
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Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

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But Seriously Folks....just in case I win the lottery and come back to play....

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Old 10-05-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #2 of 8: TIRES

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdh
I mentioned that vintage side of me was coloring my opinion. I think vintage formula cars look great, 1960's and early 70's in particular. Back then race tires were treaded, slicks were introduced to F1 racing in 1972. The R/T with treads has a hint of that look, sorta, well a little.....

I should photoshop an R/T with vintage bodywork. It would eliminate the need for wings, which would make crash damage less expensive and it would draft well, which would make the good Dr. happy
Glorious! Oh to hear a naturally aspirated Offy at full song on a dirt mile again.

In 1957, they ran knock-off hubs, 18 inch treads on the rear, often with custom grooving, 16 inch wheels up front with a 6 nylon ply "Speed Sport" on the right front and an honest to god narrow tractor tire on the left front which was often off the ground in the turns. All Firestones, "The greatest name in racing."

And the treads on the marvelous pre 1972 F1 machines look just fine to my eye as do the 4 treaded F1 tires of the last few years. This discussion seems much ado about nothing. Most of us will be happy racing a good treaded tire that makes sense logistically and keeps the cost down.
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