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  #1  
Old 09-21-2006
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Question New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Sy and I are starting a new series of threads that will offer you a place to give your feedback and ideas for several key components of the new Skippy car. Each topic/thread will last approximately one week, and will be closed out so the next one can commence. Neither Sy nor I are directly involved with the new car's development, but we do know the powers that be are reading what you have to say. We will start this week with Wings.

As with previous solicitations for feedback, lets keep a nice balance of positive and negative comments. It's okay to point out shortcomings in our existing wings, but please also offer ideas to make improvements.

I'll list some suggested questions. Answer as you wish and add your own comments as well.

Thanks again!

2007 Skippy Car - Wings

1. Does the new car need wings for a 3-Day School?
2. Does the new car need wings for Advance Activities (Lapping, ADV 2-Day)
3. Does the new car need wings for the Regional Race Series?
4. Does the new car need wings for the MASTERS National Championship?
5. Does the new car need wings for the regular Skip Barber National Championship?
6. For each of the above activities, if "Yes", what level of downforce is appropriate in general terms, such as Light, Medium, Heavy downforce?
7. Should the wing angles be adjustable by customer request at any of the above activities? If so, which series should be adjustable?
8. Any other comments?

This thread will be closed to further replies just before midnight on Sunday, October 1st. The next topic will then be introduced. So please get your feedback in ASAP.
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Last edited by sydude; 09-21-2006 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 09-21-2006
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Re: What type of Wings for new Skippy car?

1. Does the new car need wings for a 3-Day School? IMO, it's not necessary, but I sure would have liked to have them. The car felt very light on the front straight at Laguna.
2. Does the new car need wings for Advance Activities (Lapping, ADV 2-Day) Yes.
3. Does the new car need wings for the Regional Race Series? Yes.
4. Does the new car need wings for the MASTERS National Championship? Yes.
5. Does the new car need wings for the regular Skip Barber National Championship? Yes.
6. For each of the above activities, if "Yes", what level of downforce is appropriate in general terms, such as Light, Medium, Heavy downforce? For numbers one, two, and three, I think the downforce should be medium, or whatever is considered normal.
7. Should the wing angles be adjustable by customer request at any of the above activities? If so, which series should be adjustable? For numbers four and five, I think the wings should be adjustable at the customer's request. I believe it would add an interesting dynamic to the national races. If not adjustable, I think the downforce should at least be higher than that of numbers one, two, and three.
8. Any other comments? Yes... I don't really know much about the specific design of the wings on the R/T2000, nor have I had considerable experience in these cars. So take my opinions with a grain of salt.
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Old 09-21-2006
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Re: What type of Wings for new Skippy car?

1. No for the school
2. Yes for advanced/lapping
3. Yes for all of the regional/masters'/national race series
5. Perhaps have testers decide downforce for each regional venue and advise customers of what was done & why
4. Adjustable at customer request for Masters and National series
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Old 09-21-2006
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Re: What type of Wings for new Skippy car?

Who cares? As long as it looks cool!
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Old 09-21-2006
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Re: What type of Wings for new Skippy car?

I believe the new Skippy Car does need wings if for no other reason than to create a car that will attract more racers. There are a lot of racing schools to choose from out there so I think it is an important marketing technique to have a car that appears modern and to be a good learning tool applicable to more advanced series. I imagine some hotshot karter trying to decide his next move. I guarantee the appearance of the car effects his decision. Ya gotta have a wing. Since they are going to be on the car they might as well be adjustable to various levels of downforce. The older the driver, the more the downforce. Okay, the last part is a stretch but we need all the help we can get.
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Old 09-21-2006
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Re: What type of Wings for new Skippy car?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomBobN20
The older the driver, the more the downforce. Okay, the last part is a stretch but we need all the help we can get.
Maybe the Grand-Grand-Masters should have tunnels for their cars
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Old 09-21-2006
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Smile Re: What type of Wings for new Skippy car?

The things children say; you gotta love 'em.
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Old 09-21-2006
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Re: The New Skippy Car : What type of Wings for new Skippy car?

Or as George Bernard Shaw once remarked... "Youth is wasted on the young."
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Old 09-21-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Component Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

As far as the actual topic at hand, I think the 3-day school cars don't need any wings. I agree with Tom that the cars need wings for races because of the perception they give, regardless of what downforce they provide.

As for aero performance, I think the cars should be set up with very very little downforce, though with the adjustability for the testers to tune track specific problems that crop up. I'd like to see National cars with a more moderate level of downforce, but unless Skippy secures a hell of an engine for the National cars then I think anything like a "high" downforce car will dumb the car down too much.
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Old 09-21-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Component Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Most seem to be on the same page here... School cars don't need wings. Advanced activities and all series cars should have them both as visual attractant and downforce providers. The testers would provide base settings as to their effectiveness at different wing angles and power settings so that masters and national drivers could have the option of seasoning to taste.

Downforce and power certainly go hand in hand. If, as has been suggested, the power of the new motor is electronically adjustable over its power band and could be increased with the experience and skill level of each race series, then downforce would come more significantly into play at the higher power configurations.
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

1. Does the new car need wings for a 3-Day School?

No, I do not think so.
2. Does the new car need wings for Advance Activities (Lapping, ADV 2-Day)

No, neither
3. Does the new car need wings for the Regional Race Series?

Nope.
4. Does the new car need wings for the MASTERS National Championship?

Possibly
5. Does the new car need wings for the regular Skip Barber National Championship?

Yes
6. For each of the above activities, if "Yes", what level of downforce is appropriate in general terms, such as Light, Medium, Heavy downforce?

Depending on track I would vote.
7. Should the wing angles be adjustable by customer request at any of the above activities? If so, which series should be adjustable?

No
8. Any other comments?

Yes.
I would go back one step and ask, which cornering forces should be offered in each of the above mentioned activities. For me, the differences in cornering speed between the school car and the RT2000 based on downforce are not measurable. As I said, for me. I never had a sense of real downforce in the RT, and that was fine. Looking at the spread of driving skills in the regional series I do not see the necessity to increase cornering speeds over and above the given level. Consequently none of the preparatory activities for the regionals need aero.

I do agree that they look cool and lend authenticity to the racing activities, but so far at least their main impact on my racing activities has been increased crash damage,

A great attribute of the regional series is that it is a spec race, no adjustments, random cars and only the person behind the wheel matters. In so far I would - if wings were part of the package - recommend default settings.

My view on both of the national series is a bit different. The nationals are more targeted to racers that seek additional more professional racing. Be that in the series or in their future plans. My impression is that a large percentage of national racers move on and up, so for them it would a good additional element of learning about the best use of an additional technology. For the masters this is not quite so true, but it would equally be a nice piece of differentiation and add novelty for the more seasoned racers. For the nationals I would think wing adjustments are a good thing, for the masters less so. This has also to do with the logistical aspects, ie that regionals and national masters arte sharing a car fleet, while the nationals don't, if i remember correctly.

What I would like would be a class, an advanced activity where interested racers could develop setup skills and have a chance to understand how different settings effect their laptime. If aero was included in this, I believe it would be attractive.
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

I think Martin most precisely hit the nail on the head regarding all categories. I've only had several experiences driving with lots of wing in a 96 Formula 3 car. What I remember is ending up in the gravel in a high-speed corner after approaching another car too closely. There was a great deal to learn in controlling the attitude and position of the car when following closely in order to keep air over wings. If following closely doesn't have much impact, then the wings are just potential crash damage. As far as marketing appeal, I would be very interested to know if there is concrete evidence that the wings add appeal to the schools or series outside of the Nationals.
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

I don't believe the school cars need wings however I do believe the race series cars should have them. The looks of the cars generate interest from new divers as well as the technical aspects young drivers who are interested in moving up the racing ladder will need to use and take advantage of. Experienced drivers with no aspirations of moving up the ladder can enjoy the aero contributions they provide assuming they do so. I am not certain if I like the idea of adjustable wings for the sportsman series as the equality of the cars performance is compromised therefore possibly and I offer possibly making it too advanced for those participating in the Sportsmans groups. No offense meant as I am one myself and assume (there I go) that many are not as technically advanced as others related to wing and downforce adjustments. But it would be fun to learn! Ok...make em adjustable (just give me the quickest car!)
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Who cares? As long as it looks cool!
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: What type of Wings for new Skippy car?

I'm with Dick...
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Some educational input from an engineer and/or experienced instructor/tester might be helpful at this point to give us a better sense of how much difference the wings actually make given the power and speeds we operate at. (The prototype has been tested with the current Dodge motor but in all likelyhood the new car will have a different motor, with more easily and accurately adjustable output and possibly more available horsepower.)

With the relative low horsepower run in every current series it would seem the performance cost of running a high downforce setup might be higher than the aero benefit.

I've never heard anyone say the R/T2000 wings do more than provide a minor bit of downforce and a major source of eye candy for the brochure.

Would love to hear Jason, RB, Jim Pace and Gerardo weigh in on this one.
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Old 09-22-2006
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Western Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Get rid of the wings! All they do is add to my crash damage bill. The real truth of the matter is, they are all sizzle and no steak (or as we say in Texas, all hat and no cattle).

I have flagged more than one race in the rain, and I can tell you from the lack of a rooster tail that they offer no downforce.

OLDMAN
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

I agree with Dick.
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

If it probably possible to design an aesthetically pleasing and technologically more advanced and therefore "cool" race car that does not have wings. Resources could then be put to better use, for example data collection for each car. This may end up being a more attractive package for potential and existing customers.

Adjustable and effective wings, as an option, could be used in the National series or for "Tuning clinics".
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

I agree with Duncan #9 and dalyduo #10.
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Just a quick note to add to Martin's post. Skippy does (or at least they did last winter) have a program where you spend a day with the computer car and an instructor messing with the car set up and determining the effects it had on performance (no engine changes). Adding functional wings to the equation would be a great learning tool for anyone, but especially those on their way up.
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

1. Does the new car need wings for a 3-Day School?
No. 3-day students aren't at a level to learn about downforce yet. And it's an added crash damage expense that Skippy must absorb, ultimately passing it back to the customer in the price of schools.

2. Does the new car need wings for Advance Activities (Lapping, ADV 2-Day)
Yes. It should be the same car they will drive in a race weekend. The idea behind the ADV2 when it was started was to acclimate the students to the new car (wings, sequential, slicks at that time).

3. Does the new car need wings for the Regional Race Series?
Yes. I don't think heavy downforce is necessary. The primary objective should be a wing that provides good balance between downforce and drafting ability. Hopefully the new chassis will help in this department too.

4. Does the new car need wings for the MASTERS National Championship?
Yes, with medium downforce and limited adjustability. It would be awesome to give these guys more freedom to adjust the car to their liking, but not so much that it strays from a "spec" series and places less emphasis on, and reward for, driver skill.

5. Does the new car need wings for the regular Skip Barber National Championship?
Yes, medium to heavy downforce with adjustability. When compared to a series such as Formula BMW, two major benefits of running SBNC are low costs and learning racecraft. You'll learn racecraft in FMBW but to a lesser extent, because more emphasis is placed on car setup, working with an engineer, etc. Which is a better training series for the upcoming driver? There are advocates of both, but I think SBNC could offer more in the way of car setup to broaden the drivers' education; to prepare them more for the next level, where they will certainly work with an engineer on an adjustable car.

Looking forward to driving the new car!
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

here is my 2 cents.....

1. Does the new car need wings for a 3-Day School?

No - first, keeps costs low. Second, eliminates any variables due to speed-related downforce, focuses learning on pure mechanical grip. Third, gives students something to aspire to...Last, to point 1, eliminates the most-often broken part.

2. Does the new car need wings for Advance Activities (Lapping, ADV 2-Day)

I would suggest a fixed-spec for the regional series - with wings. However, I would suggest that wings are used for TUNING handling, and/or to IMPROVE handling. I am sure everyone knows that downforce produced is purely a product of the native aerodynamics of the wing(s), and that downforce produced by a "typical" wing increases exponentially with increased speed - recall that air is a "liquid that acts more viscous with speed". However, wings produce drag, which limits speed...so it's a balance. Also, more downforce creates force on the tires - good for traction, bad for tire wear. Last, with a lot of downforce, the sensitivity of the balance of a car is highlighted...meaning setup gets trickier.

3. Does the new car need wings for the Regional Race Series? Yes, same comments as above.

4. Does the new car need wings for the MASTERS National Championship? Sure - would suggest that Masters and "regular" Nationals have the same spec.

5. Does the new car need wings for the regular Skip Barber National Championship?

This is a good question - more about the identity of the Series. Is this a SPEC series, where all cars are equal and it's all about talent? Or is this a DEVELOPMENT series, where talent matters but it's also up to the drivers to setup their cars to their tastes eg tight, loose, high downforce, low downforce. I think the former (SPEC) is aligned with the SBRS brand, and the cost (in mechanics time) to do "setup" will simply add more cost - and someone who knows how much 14 year old hot shoes can dial in complex physics can comment.

6. For each of the above activities, if "Yes", what level of downforce is appropriate in general terms, such as Light, Medium, Heavy downforce?

Make it track dependent (and/or conditions, eg wet, cold, etc) as part of the car "equalization" process.

7. Should the wing angles be adjustable by customer request at any of the above activities? If so, which series should be adjustable?

See comments above about Nationals.

8. Any other comments?

Tom Roberts is right - SBRS needs a COOL car to attract people who base their decisions on superficial looks. However, a few of us do this because we get to try out, and get better (faster) at some more aggressive technology (eg sequential boxes, wings, slicks, open wheels, etc) - call us the Walter Mitty crowd. There ARE some out there that are really in this to win trophies or launch careers. I think that with a new platform (car), SBRS can meet ALL of these needs AND reduce cost/complexity through some clever design and execution...

GREAT IDEA FOR A THREAD, GUYS. QUESTION - IS ANYONE MAKING THE DECISIONS AT SBRS GOING TO READ THIS?
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Seriously folks, I think Birkman, Pork Chop and Oldman are right.
Yes they do look cool, so for the image conscious this is important. As it is in drawing in new racers.
As far as adding cost to you guys when you crash, yes they do.
Do the current RT wings really help with performance? Ask anyone who has knocked theirs off in the race. In a high speed corner they do provide some stability and balance but the FD school car with the same resrictor plate/engine is faster in a straight line.
It depends on where you want to go faster? Like more apex speed in the downhill is what the average series guy needs.
Back when I ran the series and they were formula fords, the draft kicked in about 8-10 car lenghts back. Made for very exciting racing and for those weekends when you didn't get the best car, you still had a chance because of this draft.
For all but the aspiring national guy who will encounter real wings and real downforce later in their career, it is a question of coolness over cost. You guys really need to decide that one.
Rob
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Make the car look cool I think is very important, from a marketing point of view.

1. Does the new car need wings for a 3-Day School?
Yes, mainly for marketing, little chance they will really be using the wings.

2. Does the new car need wings for Advance Activities (Lapping, ADV 2-Day)
Yes, and I'd recomend letting drivers change the settings to see what difference it makes (I'm assuming the wings actually create downforce).

3. Does the new car need wings for the Regional Race Series?
Yes, again for marketing, and also I think they should have enough downforce that you can feel it. This is to help students when they move on to higher class race cars. You have to learn to use them some time, so why not earlier.


4. Does the new car need wings for the MASTERS National Championship?
Yes. Actually, just let them vote on it.


5. Does the new car need wings for the regular Skip Barber National Championship?
Yes. I'd recomend let the Testers set the rear wing, and dirvers adjust the front wing for thier taste. I'd recomend this for the Regional class too, but if you share cars, too much hassle to always change the settings.

The reason I recomend not being able to change the rear wing is because some tracks it may be faster with low downforce. But, I think the drivers should use some downforce, to learn how to use it. Let them adjust the front wing, as that changes drag very little, and lets them adjust the handling to thier taste.


6. For each of the above activities, if "Yes", what level of downforce is appropriate in general terms, such as Light, Medium, Heavy downforce?
Enough that you can feel it, yet not so much that all the fast corners can be done flat out. Should not be set for the fastest lap time, as some tracks that might be no wing.

7. Should the wing angles be adjustable by customer request at any of the above activities? If so, which series should be adjustable?
If they share the car, no adjustment. Nationals I'd say only Front Wing adjustments. Masters National, anything. I'm saying this, since I assume most National dirvers want to move up and out of Skippy, while Masters want to stay.


8. Any other comments?
What about a rear floor/diffuser? Great way to generate lots of downforce with little drag and little effect from "dirty air." Also, not easy to damage it, except for a big accident.

Have a happy. . .
Vinay
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

1. Does the new car need wings for a 3-Day School?
If they are cheap enough, yes. While there is increased potential for crash damage, I do believe that the assemblies that are used on the RTs are quite cheap and, in an impact, represent a very small percentage of the overall damage bill in a typical impact. The reason I answered "yes" is that what the 3 day customers know about racing comes from television. If the car bears a similar appearance to open wheel cars they see on TV, it immediately drives a link between the two thereby attracting customers. From a functional perspective, no. It won't make a difference for these drivers whether the car has a little lift or not.

2. Does the new car need wings for Advance Activities (Lapping, ADV 2-Day)

Same above

3. Does the new car need wings for the Regional Race Series?

Yes. From what I can tell, the design of the current wing relies heavily on the lip or "gurney lip" on the trailing edge. At the speeds we drive and given the design of the wings, I bet these counteract lift more than adding a lot of downforce as these are flat bottom cars. So, with the flat bottom, the air going over the top of the car speeds up versus the air going underneath and this creates a low pressure area underneath thus creating lift. Reducing lift could be very relevant on certain tracks. The drag induced by the exposed wheels, suspension, etc. is probably more than enough to provide a useful draft. I doubt the wings do much more for this and I doubt that the turbulent air off of the cars in a draft would induce aerodynamic understeer at the speeds we run at and the effectiveness of the wings in the first place. If anything, the turbulent air would disrupt airflow over the top of the car and this would would reduce overall lift in a situation where two cars are driving nose-tail through a highspeed corner as opposed to seeing a reduction in wing downforce due to the turbulent air.

Bottomline, I think counteracting lift more than adding downforce is what we need in certain turns/elevation changes on certain tracks. Creating an aerodynamically neutral car (no lift) is a challenge to begin with and that should be a development goal.

It would be neat to hear from someone who has done tunnel work before as this is just my 2 cents having stayed at a Holiday Inn last night and from my rusty MS in Mechanical Engineering!

4. Does the new car need wings for the MASTERS National Championship?

Yes. See above.

5. Does the new car need wings for the regular Skip Barber National Championship?

Yes. See above.

6. For each of the above activities, if "Yes", what level of downforce is appropriate in general terms, such as Light, Medium, Heavy downforce?

Just my less than 2 cents, I doubt we are getting much useful downforce off of the wings. With the flat bottom, I bet the wings just help counteract lift as opposed to creating downward force on the tire footprint. Thus, I would vote for adding wings and tunnels (if necessary) just to create a aero balanced, neutral car (i.e. no lift).

It would be neat to hear from someone who is doing or has done tunnel work on the current car and the future car.

7. Should the wing angles be adjustable by customer request at any of the above activities? If so, which series should be adjustable?

No. The cars should be as equalized as possible with no driver set up input. We would go down a slippery slope with this. What is next? Tire air pressure? Camber?

8. Any other comments?
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDMAN
Get rid of the wings! All they do is add to my crash damage bill. The real truth of the matter is, they are all sizzle and no steak (or as we say in Texas, all hat and no cattle).

I have flagged more than one race in the rain, and I can tell you from the lack of a rooster tail that they offer no downforce.
Are you serious? I could notice it like night and day. The school car felt like it was going to take off and the car with wings felt solid and planted. I guess I could just be crazy, who knows.
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

My two cents...
The car must look attractive to get customers in the door...once inside we can try to educate them about driving skill, costs, performance, and FUN factor.

1. Does the new car need wings for a 3-Day School?

No...A. logsitics, B. crash damage, C. same driving error results is a crash but while going faster and now costs more.

2. Does the new car need wings for Advance Activities (Lapping, ADV 2-Day)

Not from a performance standpoint. Most new drivers have enough on their plate just getting back in the car.
Why not offer School Car (no wing) lapping for fun, and Advanced Lapping (wing car) for serious racer?

3. Does the new car need wings for the Regional Race Series?

Only to provide DRAG for better drafting which results in better racing. Many drivers race with us for a few seasons on their way to another series, only a few of which are winged formula cars. For all the drivers we train that later go onto Vintage, Sportscar, SCCA, PCA, Ferrari Challenge etc... wings are a non issue and usually add up to several thousand dollars by the end of a season with Skippy! (Intersting to see wing damage $$ from the guys on this forum?)

4. Does the new car need wings for the MASTERS National Championship?

If the car is FUN to drive and the environment FUN they will race it, no matter what! Even now "the gang" goes all over frequently driving low performance cars (Spec Miata) because they are having FUN! If you want to go faster stop lifting for the downhill! If you are seventh on the grid and we add wings you will still be seventh! But paying several thousands $$$ for bent wings...


5. Does the new car need wings for the regular Skip Barber National Championship?

Kids need advanced racecar to prep for future cars! Adjustable Wings and BETTER SLICKS would make a tremendous difference! (Even on the current RT...bolt on 2-3 seconds quicker at Moroso). Not a popular topic but easiest to go faster. Speed is always limited by tire.


6. For each of the above activities, if "Yes", what level of downforce is appropriate in general terms, such as Light, Medium, Heavy downforce?

Perhaps only 3 levels of adjustment would be a nice beginning for the Nationals. Most drivers will arrive at the same settings at each track but being able to experience the committment required at a high downforce setting is great experience.


7. Should the wing angles be adjustable by customer request at any of the above activities? If so, which series should be adjustable?

Logistically Series adjustments are abad idea. The more opportunity to be out of adjustment the more likely to be incorrect. Keep it simple! Currently the only adjustments are pedals and that takes forever to get a session going. To complicate matters with customer adjustable wings is a bad idea...if you want group 4 & 5 to race.

8. Any other comments?

The most fun the RT has been is with treaded tires and the Todd Snyder/Hansford style rear wing. This provided a little more downforce to put power down and extra drag at topend making the draft nearly unbreakable. Now the top ten stay together and the smartest drivers work their way through the pack. Close racing, more competitive, less panic because no one is running away.

Thanks for reading. JP
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

We should not lose sight of the fact that this is the Skip Barber Racing SCHOOL, not the Skip Barber Budget Race Series. The goal of a school is to teach and prepare its students for the competitive nature of the real world. While wings and such do look cool and will certainly attract people looking for sizzle, it remains that wings and aero devices are the order of the day in the outside racing world. It would therefore seem logical that the series actual race school events focus on basic driving and car control skills; cars sans wings. Then, as a student moves beyond the school into regular race activities, the car should become increasingly complex and representative of what the student will experience when he/she moves beyond the SBRS program such as adding wings and increasing opportunity to change their set-up.

For those of us who elect to stay in the Skippy program year-after-year, the opportunity to move into more competitive elements i.e. Sportsman, Championship, National etc., along with the increased car set-up complexity such as wing and other other set-up changes continues the learning experience.
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

In response to Pat in post #16, the new car will have a modern design for its wings. That design is still being finalized, but the point being its effectiveness will be significantly higher than the R/T 2000 wing package.

A very light downforce car will have less overall grip at higher speeds, making it more challenging (and in some eyes, more fun) to drive. A high downforce car will have more grip at higher speeds, higher corner speeds, perhaps easier to drive (too easy with low horsepower). Whether light or heavy downforce, wings can help create balance and stability, but that can also be done mechanically with suspension setup and alignment.

Many have posted that a no-wing car is huge fun. Having tested the prototype with and without wings, I can tell you the no-wing car was really fun. I would want to test a few low downforce settings with wings to see if we can make the car as fun, yet more secure for drivers with less experience.

So, for the low horsepower of our cars, less downforce is a more challenging car to drive. Is this what drivers consider fun?

Please keep your comments coming in. Thank you all.
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

I think the racing series cars should have wings. Mainly because of the look it provides on the cars. I don't know how much downforce the wings on the current car produce, but they enhance the overall experience in my opinion. It is more fun to be in a car that more closely resembles those that professional drivers race. Also drivers who are using the series as a stepping stone will be more likely to want to participtae if the cars are similar to those they will use later in their careers.

I don't think the wings should be adjustable though. The time that would be spent on adjusting wings would slow the entire process down. Each car would have to be rest between groups, then you'd have to remember the exact settinsg that you had on your car. It would make for 60 minutes turn around times!
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Hey L8Apex:
Do you think the only difference between the school car and the RT is the wings?

Just for the record, last July I had a not so violent contact with the wall in West Bend. Total cost for the rear wing damage came to $1,759! I can itemize if you wish.

OLDMAN

Last edited by OLDMAN; 09-22-2006 at 05:28 PM.
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  #33  
Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Ahh Wings, don't you love em
For three day schools..... No wings
For Advanced 2days and lapping....do we need 'em, no..... But do we want 'em......oh yeah!!!!!
For the regional series.....see above
For the masters.... we need something to make us look racy. WE NEED WINGS (red Bull just doesnt cut it)
The Nationals... They absolutly need wings. They are moving on to bigger and faster aero cars. The wings are a must

on to the next thread
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Jim Pace and I pretty much have the same view on this subject. So, I won't waste our time posting almost what he said.

I do not want to bring up the "school car series" or talk about history much. If you ever saw, or raced in a school car race... you would quickly see how little they really work. Both in terms of crash damage and functionality.

3- day school, sure, make some wings. Less work for a mechanic to convert a race car into a school car etc. Not to mention the "water spider" or anteater wingless wonder looked like a prop reject from star wars.


2-day Advanced. Have some wings and change the AOA(Angle of attack) to provide more down force and drag.

Race Weekend, sure. Have some more AOA and make even more down force and drag for drafting.

This is pretty simple, and I feel that it would look ok. I think, personally, you could have a nice semi-symmetrical wing without a wicker and just change the AOA for adjustment. That or a modified Clark Y airfoil. Basically these airfoils can make more down force and drag combined without a lot of effort( 2 or 3 bolts per wing) and have a huge effect on the car.

I have been picking an old mechanic of Skips who works at Boeing as an aerodynamic expert. I think it is worth a thought. Can-AM cars and various cars had this same setup forever........ Hope I did not offend anybody... Keith
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Old 09-22-2006
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I can't figure out why we still have wings on any race car that isn't running on dirt. They are obsolete. Once every car in the feild has them they become pointless. That happened in 1968. The only benefit that have is that they look zoomy in some cases.
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

I'd be interested in learning as much as possible about set-up, and how different downforce settings might work with one's own inherent driving style and capabilities. I like the idea of having that be available both in classes and in competitive events.

For me, its the other students and racers and the caliber and character of the instructors that continues to be a strong attractor to Skip Barber. Early inquiries into other schools gave the impression that the complete package, and positive, friendly environment just wasn't that widely available.

Finally, to me, the coolest looking racecar is the one i'm about to strap into!
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDMAN
Hey L8Apex:
Do you think the only difference between the school car and the RT is the wings?
Hello OLDMAN. No, I was not under that impression.

I'm hoping that my post didn't offend you in some way. It may have sounded like I didn't believe you, or something, but in reality I just wanted you to elaborate a bit because you have much more experience with these cars than I do.

That being said... what differences exist between the two cars, other than the wings, that would make me feel as if I was about to take flight in the school car?
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar92
....Not to mention the "water spider" or anteater wingless wonder looked like a prop reject from star wars......... Hope I did not offend anybody... Keith
Good one Watts, but I'm pretty sure you offended anteaters everywhere....

there is something to be said for how wings make a race car look like a proper race car.... (excuse the sloppy p-shop, these were rushed)
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  #39  
Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Sexy
I can't figure out why we still have wings on any race car that isn't running on dirt. They are obsolete. Once every car in the feild has them they become pointless. That happened in 1968. The only benefit that have is that they look zoomy in some cases.
Brilliant point, and why did we do away with Bias Ply tires with the new technology? Sideways was more fun to drive and the fans liked it better. I guess the fact of the matter is, we have wings to make the cars faster. And now that they are here... it is a marketing tool for SBRS...
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

this should help - the zoomier anteater
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  #41  
Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

I cant tell if that is RB, or the test car without wings...
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  #42  
Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

The company store price of the wings is about $2,000. They provide lots of income for SPRS. They don't, however, add $2,000 worth of enjoyment to my race weekend.

Let's see, should I bend the rear wing this weekend or ski in Aspen for a week?

OLDMAN
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  #43  
Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Here we go. The Word-Fairy has visited.

At the risk of being considered a Nay-Sayer, I have to respond to the thread about wings by backing up and looking at the larger picture.
Insted of starting with the subject of wings on school cars, I think we ought to skip ahead to the final subject...Downforce and adjustability in the National Series car.
A little history. Didn't the company just liquidate a program (called the Pro Series) that used composite chassis, slick shod cars, with low enrollment levels that cost the company over $1.0 Million a year since its inception? The proposal for the new car spec and Series sounds frighteningly familiar.
I recall the little-remembered quote from Adrian Reynard that "we are not in the business of making racecars....we are in the business of making money."
The National Series, as it is, struggles to fill fields of 15. I don't think that one can assume that the entry (not to mention the profit) would improve by doubling the cost of the cars and parts in the name of swoopy looks and technology.
The market for a Step-Up Series of single seat race cars is already saturated by formula BMW and Formula Mazda. The only point of diferentiation the SBRS series could use is lower cost. With a similarly expensive car and repair expense, the only way SBRS could offer a similar product at a lower cost would be to limit costs by reducing staff expenses.
Our version of a Pro Series-type weekend ADDS staff costs in the way of Mechanical car preparation staff as well as providing Instructor support. I can't see where this type of operation can be competitive, especially considering the support given the competing series by major manufactures.

This was all about wings, wasn't it?

Lets look at the number of people these kinds of decisions could possibly effect.

National Race Series
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Sexy
I can't figure out why we still have wings on any race car that isn't running on dirt. They are obsolete. Once every car in the feild has them they become pointless. That happened in 1968. The only benefit that have is that they look zoomy in some cases.
Which brings me back to my point...


Who cares? As long as it looks cool!
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Old 09-22-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

I see why our series has threatened future...43 posts on whether we should have wings or no wings to make the series more fun, more attractive and more whatever. I say bring on the Umbrella Girls! That will fix everything!
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Old 09-23-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

I always thought that a $500 daily fee that absolved the driver who created no crash damage during the course of the day, but rewarded him with a 20-25 year old female assistant, for the balance of the weekend. Would go a long way toward everyone having a terriffic weekend in the country. I'd give up the driving and go for the weekend with the umbrella! Great explanation for the folks at home..."went racing..it was stressful but I did get a trophy",
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Old 09-23-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

The point of this thread was to kick around the subject of wings on the new car and on that count the bell has been pretty well rung. (And don't stop now if you've more to add... The gates will be open through Sunday October 1st).

Our thought provoking ideas have ranged from a paraphrased "we don't need 'em" to "Got to have 'em 'cause they look bitchin'! With some pretty well informed comment and opinion in between.

This is a great start and good use of this site. The gates will open on a different aspect of the new car next week and we invite everyone back to weigh in then too.

Tip of the cap to Sy and Gerardo for cooking this up.
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Old 09-23-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Heck Carl, We could just blow our racing budgets in Vegas each weekend instead of the one race weekend that really goes there! Of course then you're talking about real life crash damage like ruined family lives and massive debts... Oh... Come to think of it... Not that different from racing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Lopez
I always thought that a $500 daily fee that absolved the driver who created no crash damage during the course of the day, but rewarded him with a 20-25 year old female assistant, for the balance of the weekend. Would go a long way toward everyone having a terriffic weekend in the country. I'd give up the driving and go for the weekend with the umbrella! Great explanation for the folks at home..."went racing..it was stressful but I did get a trophy",
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Old 09-23-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Jim Pace mentioned that one of the main things about the wings is the Drag factor, making it easier to draft and pass. Is it really the wings, or the body that makes it that way for the R/T 2000.

I remember racing at Road America and HATING the draft, made it very difficult to run away with the lead, if there was a driver within 70 meters behind you, chances are he'll pass you before the next corner!

Racing Renault, drafting does not make as big of a difference compared to the R/T 2000 while the Renault uses downforce close to F3. You loose a lot of front downforce following someone in high speed corners though.

Have a happy. .
Vinay
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Old 09-23-2006
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Re: New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

Indeed excellent comments and perspectives. Thank you all.

As announced, this survey will end October 1st, and a new survey will begin. What component will it be? You'll have to wait until Oct 1st to see Survey #2 of 8. In the meantime, we thank you for your comments!
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