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Old 06-07-2006
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Uphill battle

Steve Kunsey called to say they were running a rare single lapping day at LRP last week and having missed the Glen I said… “sign me up!”

George McArthur, Dom Bastien and Ted Jewell (Watertown Newbie) were the only race series guys I knew, with a gaggle of recent 3 & 2 day graduates looking for seat time. RB Stiewing was ringmaster with Bruce MacInnes, Carl Lopez, and Stephan B. watching the corners. We’d run two groups with two short twenty-minute sessions followed by one 35-minute session. I’d be in group 2 sharing a car with Dom.

As luck would have it, George and Dom went out in group 1 and were in the middle of their second short session when George got sideways through West Bend leaving Dom, right on his tail, no place to go. They both wound up with damage but thankfully no injuries, and both got into spare cars and completed their session.

Then it was my turn. At about lap five with warm tires and increasing speed, all was well as we progressively shortened our throttle pause each lap on no-name straight before turn-in to the uphill. Correct that... All was well until the moment we carried so much entry speed into the apex that we lost our nerve and feathered the throttle where no feathering should be taking place! Putting the throttle back to the floor was the right choice to stabilize the car but it also meant chasing the tail, now sliding left, and increasing the arc of our turn wider than the desired line. It's also possible that we created or compounded the problem by turning in early or missing the apex wide but we were so busy catching our "Oh Sh__" lift moment that we'll just never know for sure. At this point we do know that making the turn is going to be close and lifting again will mean certain disaster. So we keep our foot in it and feel momentary relief when the rear end hooks up launching us up the hill. We are focused well right of the new high Armco that meets the old low Armco at the flagging stand but the car is too far left. Time shifts into slow motion as the left front wheel just barely clears the new Armco and the left side of the car is so close that we know we aren't going to make a clean gettaway. In the next millisecond the left rear wheel squarely nails the new Armco at full throttle. The impact bends back the Armco support post about 25 degrees, shears off the left rear wheel and suspension before pitching the car up and over to the right as we crest the hill in a flying barrel roll that lands us sliding upside down toward West Bend, flat spotting the roll bar. We skitter upside down more than 100 yards before hitting right side grass that flips us back right side-up with the motor still idling. Woof... (As Craig Breedlove once said after climbing from his wadded up land speed record jet car... "For my next number I'd now like to do a little tap dance for you..."

The front wheels were still on the car and we'd have loved nothing more than pushing it into gear and motoring back to the pits like nothing had happened. Thought of Rob Slonaker’s tale of a newbie who had just knocked the back end of his car off and looked up at Rob to ask if he could drive it back to the pits, not realizing the absence of drive wheels. Given what had just occured we double-checked the mirrors and confirmed we were, in fact, one wheel and quite a few suspension pieces short of a proper set... So we switched off the motor and noticed the enormous dust cloud we'd just created at the crest of the uphill was beginning to sprout racecars. They were sufficiently slowed by the dust and site of me disabled on the inside grass to pose no further threat.

The inversion of the car was experienced with curious detachment. The initial jolt felt like a powerful tug from a rope that rotated the car quickly upside down, throwing the cockpit into darkness (Holy Sh__, I’m upside down!) while striations in the pavement rushed past my head like stars from an old Star Trek episode when the Enterprise launched into Hyperspace.

My hands were barely visible on the steering wheel (pulling thumbs back.) and in one of those "time stands still" moments recalled our multiple advocacy posts for arm restraints on TJR while also realizing we had picked the wrong moment to leave our restraints safely tucked in our gear bag back in the tower. (Doh!) Fortunately our arms remained safely inside the cockpit.

As the dust settled Bruce and RB, immediately on scene, didn’t know the car had flipped until they saw the flat spot on the roll bar.

We were extremely grateful to come away with absolutely no physical injury from our royal screw up. The part shedding all happened behind us. Our elbow and kneepads worked perfectly as shock insulators in the cockpit and the whole experience was far less upsetting than The Tower of Terror ride I endured at Disney World a few years back.

After a brief EMS check-up we got back in another car and continued to challenge the uphill enough for Papa Carl to call us in and kindly suggest a second big crash was not on his recommended list of things for us to accomplish that day. :-) And I was OK with being on a rather short leash for the rest of the day.

Thoughts on the LRP Uphill Armco: By moving back the Armco at the base of the uphill this past winter to accommodate a tethered tire barrier for safely collecting cars at the bottom, (Sort of a rain-line catchers mitt) they've created a potentially more dangerous situation at the top. Instead of deflecting a car that runs wide going up the hill there is now the real danger of being captured or stopped dead (so to speak) by the angle of the newly recessed and completely exposed high Armco where it comes out to meet the old Armco near the crest of the hill.

Immediately following my hit the right vertical edge of the new Armco received an orange day-glow stripe to alert drivers to its location, I suppose. But the paint now draws attention to itself in such a way that a newbie in trouble might fixate eyes on it and go right for it. If it were my choice I'd move the flag stand and Armco back at the top so the Armco angle would never include the possibility of capturing a car at speed. That would be an extensive modification but certainly a lifesaver worth investing in. Hate to imagine catching the current configuration with a front wheel or nose at full song.

Never wanted to be the LRP crash test dummy but hope constructive change will come of this misadventure. When I left the track Skippy and LRP folk were at the uphill discussing it. One fix being considered was bringing the tire barrier up farther to attenuate impacts before getting to that new Armco at the top.

We may have been one of the first to visit that spot but doubt we'll be the last.

Moments before my first session we’d been sitting in the van with RB watching the uphill commenting on the irony of the most experienced guys on track, George and Dom finding each other in west bend and now I was standing there with helmet in hand making it a perfect tri-fecta with $14,638 of damage and a flat spotted roll bar nicely managed all by myself.

In the end we weren’t gritting our teeth hell-bent for speed when this happened. In fact we were attempting to be gradual and progressive in our speed increases so they would be controlled and repeatable. Instead of sneaking up on speed, it snuck up on us. Data acquisition would have been fun to reverse engineer the moment and pin point all the little mistakes that led to the big moment. But in the end, the faster you go, the smaller the margin for error (especially at Lime Rock) and we caught ourself out going faster than we could handle, thinking we could adjust on the fly. Very humbling and very lucky the hit was only financial.

After our visit to EMS walking up pit lane George McArthur stalked halfway down the lane to greet us with a warm hug and look of concern that was unexpected and touching. Dom, the instructors and other drivers all showed their own versions of that same concern. It kept reminding me that we aren't just playing video games here and how lucky we are to have each other and this talented group of instructors to play with and learn from. It is always a special priviledge, even when we screw up.

As I was packing up in the classroom someone asked me, (I think it was Ted) if anyone had passed me on the track all day. Everyone kind of stopped and looked at me while I pondered the question and I realized that in fact, no one had passed me all day., But I also knew my experience level far exceeded everyone else in the group and what the correct answer was...

"Oh sure people passed me", I said "... when I was facing backwards in a car with 3 wheels and a flat spot on the rollbar... EVERYONE passed me! :-)"

It got the expected laugh but it went to the truth of how I felt about exceeding my ability and crashing. If I was fast enough to pass everyone with less experience than me... I should have also been smart enough to keep it on the track.
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Last edited by dalyduo; 06-09-2006 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 06-07-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Pat... that does not sound like any fun at all. Thanks for the write-up. Well done, informative and eye-opening. To think that was done in lapping and not 'heat of battle' is interesting... the Nat'l boys stayed out of trouble, but hopefully your experience isn't an indication of future problems.

As you said, hopefully the track will continue to tune the barriers so they have the intended effect.

Glad you are ok....

BTW... exactly who was in the car with you that day?
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Old 06-07-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

It is very likely that I was the next car to the Uphill after Pat's adventure. Heading down No-Name, I noticed the flag person vigorously waving the yellow flag as I turned in. That caused me to proceed relatively smoothly to the apex, and by then I noticed the huge (and I mean huge), probably forty-foot high dust cloud at the top of the Uphill. So I really slowed down (not a problem with the Uphill and gravity assisting me), and as I crested the Uphill there was no way to see very far down the track. Nor could I make out a car anywhere, and I really thought that there might be a car parked in the middle of the track not far ahead of me. That is how thick the dust cloud was. Going even more slowly by now, in perhaps another second I saw a car off to the right, sitting upright, and I figured there had been a really big slide to produce all of that dust. Only then did things clear enough for me also to see stuff in the track, including the number that formerly had been on the car. (It must have been separated from the car during the barrel-roll.) I was going very slowly by this time, and I snaked my way through the debris. By the time I reached West Bend, the black flags were out.

Even though this was a lapping day and not an open practice (i.e., there was limited passing), the goal of driving is to go faster. As Pat noted, no one should be looking at any of the winter improvements to the Uphill. I kept my eyes on the apex and the track out and am only vaguely aware of what was off to my left. Nonetheless, I would like to think that if I ever need any of that new stuff off to my left at the Uphill, it will be a blessing and not something that turns an already bad situation into something worse. Perhaps the most likely place to hit the Armco on a dry day is near that orange paint. Ramming it with a rear tire is bad enough (as Pat showed), but hitting it nearly head-on could be really nasty. If there is a way to rearrange the Armco so that a gentler deflection is possible, that would be something to look into.
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Old 06-07-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

PAT ! what did you do? Dont be to hard on your self leave that to the expert's. I knew that was coming sorry it had to be you.Glad you are fine sad you are poorer. YOU have just joined the inverted club. Hope you keep your eye's open for the whole ride. You paid enough
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Old 06-07-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Pat:

I am glad you are fine physically. Having had some moments myself in the last few years I know how unsettling this can be. It is always quite humbling. As you so eloquently put, we are not playing video games...

The looks of that armco even without the orange paint does not look like the best engineered transition. I hope that Lime Rock Park and its' owners try their best to smooth that out before anyone else meets it.

Thankfully you are not injured and got back in the saddle. I have to say, I have never seen a wheel denuded of its' spokes quite the way you were able to do it! Keep the faith and Godspeed Pat!
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Old 06-07-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

So, let me see if I have this correct. What used to be a 20 degree hit is now a 50 degree hit?


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Old 06-07-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Glad you are OK! That was quite an experience, I'm sure. Everyone knows I am not a fan of LRP and this just builds the case.
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Old 06-07-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

wow...................wow...................wow

glad you're still entertaining us with your prose, stop entertaining us with your driving! Glad you are OK buddy

I didn't know SB was pursuing hubless wheel technology



I think LRP should still consider this pic from an earlier post
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Old 06-07-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Pat
Thanks for sharing the experience... I crashed on the uphill (albeit less extensively) on my 2 day at LRP a few years ago and it still gives me the chills everytime I approach it. I am looking forward to seeing the changes (improvements?) in July.
But above all I am glad that you are safe
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Old 06-07-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Were any booties involved?

(Glad you're okay!)
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Pat, the remains of your R/T seem to belong in a setting more like this...
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

I think Sid put it best when he said "Stercus accidit".

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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Thanks for all the kind words of support while enduring more "crushing word count".

Michael - Not worried going forward. Went right back at it and still love the uphill. Absolutely know the line NOT to use through it now.

Ted - Thanks for your kind words. Really enjoyed meeting and speaking with you.

Sid - Eyes wide open the whole way. E- Ticket ride for sure. Card carrying member now.

Chris - We did keep that wheel as a most excellent memento. Thanks for your support.

Bob - You have a degree in degrees... You are correct sir. Nice illustration of the issue.

Dick - My only comfort in all this was knowing I've got a long way to go to equal your uphill crash damage totals. Understand your aversion to LRP but after going there for almost 40 years... I'm romantically involved.

Doug - Yes with all this entertaining driving we should be with Matt Ferratusco at his Disney stunt training. Love the hubless wheel, catchers mitt and "Classic" modern art crash damage sculpture garden. So good. In truth I just couldn't stand the thought of Richard Heistand holding the altitude record at the uphill in an RT but sadly there is no photo evidence of my Joey Chitwood, Dukes of Hazzard performance.

Nick - Thanks - Yes, we've both now "been there, done that".

Gerardo - The only bootie involved is the big one I've been kicking myself with since doing this... But that will soon be retired as well.

Again, thanks all for your kind words and support. Onward and (ahem...) upward!
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDMAN
I think Sid put it best when he said "Stercus accidit".

OLDMAN


So there's nobody there to grab Pat Daly by the shoulders and shake him and say

"If you turn any earlier you'll be in ORBIT"
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Pat's event in the uphill gives a whole new meaning to the statement "keep your eyes up and look thorugh the turn"
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

or straighten up and fly right.....

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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Glad you're ok....could they (SB) place a tire barrier where the Armco meets or at a location susceptible to possible impacts?
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

It isn't the SBRS's responsibility as it isn't their track.

Doing exactly that (extending the tire barrier farther up the hill in front of the new Armco) was being discussed by track officials when I took the pictures. I suspect something will be done as it's in their best interests to have that spot be as safe as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr922
Glad you're ok....could they (SB) place a tire barrier where the Armco meets or at a location susceptible to possible impacts?
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Forgot this was not their track...good point
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Pat,
I'm glad you're OK. I haven't been to the track yet this year , but the portion shown in the photo's looks poorly resolved. Anyone going off track early in the turn may do better, but a late off track path looks deadly.
I went off in 2004 at the uphill while progressively shortening my throttle pause each lap when one lap was just too short a pause, so I tried a small lift, but obviously that didn't work and I TTO'd into the wall. Mine was a glancing blow but still left me with $13K plus crash damage.
Your suggestions for improvement sound good and I hope LRP will take care of this before the next incident.
I experienced a similar reaction from the drivers and instructors afterwards that was really comforting too. Its a wonderful group.
Tom
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Glad you're okay Pat. I'll see if we're hiring!
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Old 06-08-2006
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Eek! Re: Uphill battle

Pat,

Glad you're ok.

CDH:

The picture you posted is of the sculpture garden behind Bunche Hall at UCLA. I walk through it everyday from my car to school. So funny to see such a familiar scene on TJR. I would welcome the addition of Pat's demolished RT!

Revere
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgreist
The picture you posted is of the sculpture garden behind Bunche Hall at UCLA. I walk through it everyday from my car to school. So funny to see such a familiar scene on TJR. I would welcome the addition of Pat's demolished RT! - Revere
pretty funny, it was the best 'donor' shot I could find for Pat's sculpture.....

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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Pat

After reading your and Ted's replies, I think my comment may have been misconstrued. When I said...

"To think that was done in lapping and not 'heat of battle' is interesting... the Nat'l boys stayed out of trouble, but hopefully your experience isn't an indication of future problems."...

I didn't mean future problems for you, or that you shouldn't have been going as quickly as possible on a lapping day. Rather, I meant that we all push the envelope a little further in the heat of a close race than in practice. If this happened in lapping when all attention is on the proper line, and not passing or being passed, I worry that we may see more incidents on race days.

Let's hope it gets fixed.
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Pat:

Glad you are OK and in a good humor. Sorry this dramatic experience was the necessary inspiration, but your write up is excellent. Keep the shiny side up from now on.

Kasey
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Thanks Michael,

I did misunderstand your intention there. Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, completely agree. Can easily imagine someone without a lot of laps at LRP misjudging a late divebomb pass in the heat of battle and putting both cars straight into that barrier.
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Thanks Kasey... You too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasey
Pat:
Keep the shiny side up from now on.
Kasey
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Old 06-08-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJAmok
I didn't mean future problems for you, or that you shouldn't have been going as quickly as possible on a lapping day. Rather, I meant that we all push the envelope a little further in the heat of a close race than in practice. If this happened in lapping when all attention is on the proper line, and not passing or being passed, I worry that we may see more incidents on race days.
Michael,
I see your point. However, I believe in the races drivers have a heightened sense of awareness, and more motivation to keep the mistakes to a minimum for a better result. For some drivers (not all) the Lapping environment may be treated a bit too relaxed, and more errors occur, sometimes more serious.

It could go either way. Yes, we try harder in the race which could lead to errors, but I think many drivers make fewer mistakes in the race as they are the most focused on their best driving at that time, or at least they should be.

If a driver makes more errors in the race than in practice/lapping, then they may need to re-evaluate their risk judgement in the cockpit.

My $0.02
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  #30  
Old 06-09-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

(I seem to be late again....such is my life )

Look it on the bright side, you got it out of the way and can still get those all-inportant race points.

Seriously though, glad you're alright. They definately left out the finishing touches on that armco. My thought: replace both the new and old sections of armco with a nice radiused barrier. No sharp edges to get wrapped around.

Gerardo,
Good points! Personally, I usually run quicker in a race than in practice. (More focused)
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Old 06-09-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Pat,

I'm later still, but relieved you're whole and ready for more.

LRP is it's own special case but as we know, peak (as in falling off a mountain) experiences lurk around any corner or even down straights. Mastering the delicate balance between triumph and diaster keeps us coming back. Hope to see you at Road America end of the month.

John
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Old 06-09-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Thanks John,

Always enjoy the potent economy of your words.

Won't be at Road America, there's a slim chance we'll run LRP in July and for sure we'll be at Mt. Tremblant.

Have fun at RA!
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Old 06-10-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Pat,

Sounds like you had quite a ride. It's amazing how quickly one can go from extracting the last little bit out of a finely tuned race car to being extracted from a demolished heap of junk.

Very glad you came out in one piece, even if the car did not.

-Pete
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  #34  
Old 06-10-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Yes, quite a ride Peter. The expensive part of the learning curve... So it goes

Kieth: like your thoughts on the radiused barrier... and the points! Thanks!
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Old 06-10-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

From what I saw at LRP today, they've added some rubber padding up to and around the sharp Armco corner. It didn't look like full tires, but it did extend from the end of the new tires around to the old Armco.
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Old 06-10-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Welcome to Grassheads International

Paul B.
Grassheads International, Airborne Division

For the uphill, I still like the catcher's mitt idea.
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Old 06-11-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

The issue is the angle of the new Armco where it reaches the old Armco. Even with tires in front of it you still have the potential to decelerate a car and driver from high speed to zero in a very short distance. Glad they're working on it.
Thanks for the update! :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheekychica
From what I saw at LRP today, they've added some rubber padding up to and around the sharp Armco corner. It didn't look like full tires, but it did extend from the end of the new tires around to the old Armco.
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  #38  
Old 06-11-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Pat

I was there yesterday. Todd showed me what it looked like when you were there and what it looks like now. It is much better. You couldn't hook the back end on the current configuration.

It still isn't perfect, and they are thinking about further improvements, but it is a good temporary solution.

One solution they are contemplating is pushing back the flag stand and carving into the berm there, as someone here suggested. My concern with that is that it will alter the racing line as we look for increased radius... so depending on what barrier they put at the edge will determine if it is safer or not... and likely at higher than current speeds.

I'd also like to thank ALMS for the changes they required LRP to make (NOT!). Most are ugly and/or half-assed.

The catch fencing might catch a baseball or an errant time sheet, but it isn't going to do diddly to stop a car or significant car parts! They have added Armco in many places... my favorite was on the outside of Westbend, on the way to the bridge... it is IN FRONT of the tire barriers! Might be ok for a sedan, but from personal experience, if I was going to hit something in a Skippy car, I'd prefer tires! On No-name, they scooped out a lot of extra dirt... and left it that way. Looks like a half finished excavation job. Yuk. The new pit in looks pretty tight and twisty to me... I wouldn't want to try to get in there in a hurry!

Pat... didn't mean to hi-jack your thread. But, what were your thoughts on the other changes?
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Old 06-12-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

I found a video of a racing incident at the Uphill involving the new armco. It involves a Spec Miata and the contact looks the same as Pat described without the rollover consequence. I imagine the impact speed was a lot lower than what Pat experienced.

Here's the link to the forum thread:

http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums...ad.php?t=29852

Here's a link to the video:

http://www.over6racing.com/videos/lrp06_crash.wmv
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  #40  
Old 06-12-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Ugly! Seems like there is way too much armco versus a softer and more gradual transisiton.
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  #41  
Old 06-12-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

With as many concerns as there are re. this section of the track is there anything we can do to "encourage" or "suggest" to the powers at large to make additional alterations?
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  #42  
Old 06-12-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Let's go back to the old wall! The new set-up is better for those who don't make it to the apex (usually a wet track). The old wall was better for those who did make it to the apex.

OLDMAN
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  #43  
Old 06-12-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Michael took a recon lap with Todd late Saturday and the changes sounded encouraging. From his report there are now tires with a rubber membrane extending out and up to the old Armco so the kind of direct catching impact I made on the new Armco is no longer possible. Also under consideration is moving back the flag stand and old armco (As well as the new Armco that now comes out to meet the old) to make the consequences of overshooting at the crest of the hill less severe as well. It all sounds encouraging.

There is no free lunch here. Every change produces a new set of consequences.

As mentioned earlier, LRP's best interests are in having the safest venue possible. They do have a web site where your voice could be heard and I have no doubt they are paying close attention to this issue.
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  #44  
Old 06-12-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Reading this discussion is kind of like listening to a couple death row inmates debating which of death by lethal injection or hanging is preferable.
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  #45  
Old 06-12-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

looking at the photos i would guess DRAWN & QUARTERED
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Old 06-12-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

That guy turned left when the white car spun. Probably thought he needed to. This is why in-car video reviews after races are so valuable.

I don't necessarily think widening the runoff will affect the racing line of the fastest drivers. Just follow Peter Ludwig. Apparently he has no idea there's even a wall there judging by all the rocks he throws up each lap at the track-out. It may give less experienced drivers more confidence, which is a good thing. More confidence = fewer errors.
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Old 06-12-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

ok, Gerardo, I'll take one for the team, and stick my head into the lion's mouth.

Tell me why you don't think it would affect the racing line?

Peter, in your example, currently uses every inch of road available to him. So much so, that he runs over the dirt and kicks up rocks.

If the wall was pushed back 5 feet... wouldn't Peter drive 5 feet further to the left? I imagine if they put a curb where the track used to end, the line would be the same. I'd bet a lot of money that isn't the plan. Therefore, I think the line would be altered.

The altered line would create more radius, which in turn would increase the speed. The logical conclusion then is that we'll just hit the wall harder!

That is why I think the answer isn't widening the road, but creating a safer barrier.

Where do I err, professor?
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Old 06-12-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerardo
More confidence = fewer errors.
BTW... I disagree with your equation. I prefer this one...

More confidence + the skill to back it up = fewer errors.

Confidence alone does not a good driver make!
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Old 06-12-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

I may have missunderstood the thread.

I had gathered that runnoff (i.e. dirt, grass, distance to the tirewall) was being increased, but that the asphalt was unchanged. If the asphalt is unchanged, and you got the most out of the corner previously, you'll do it the same now with more peace of mind in case something goes wrong.

If they add exit curbs or widen the track in any way, then certainly that allows a larger radius, more speed, and potential for faster impact speed. I don't see a guy like Peter using more dirt with the wall further back because eventually he'll have too much wheelspin at corner exit and it will yield diminishing returns (not that I think dropping tires is faster than keeping all four on).

I agree a safer tire wall or other barrier is a smart plan. I also think, from a sporting point of view, to not change the width of the track. The corner is a great challenge as is. Improving the safety without altering the character would be a real treat.

I agree with you about confidence and skill! I should have been more clear.

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  #50  
Old 06-12-2006
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Re: Uphill battle

Perhaps it was me that assumed too much. In my head, I envisioned more asphalt. If it is dirt, the line certainly wouldn't change.

Glad we are on the same page now!
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