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  #1  
Old 04-17-2006
KevinH KevinH is offline
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Future Race Series Cars...

A friend invited me join him at an AMG party during the press days athe NY Autoshow and I ran in to a couple of Skippy people there who were looking to put together some driving events with AMG customers. We got to talking about racing which led to some light details on the new cars they have in development.

A few bullet points...

Will start to see them released in certain race series starting as early as next season!

Jason has already tested one (I believe it was in Sebring, open bar dulled my memory a little) and with the current engine bolted on to the new chassis he was over 7 seconds faster! Mostly attributed to the weight of the car.

They are working on a data acqusition system for all cars as well as up to three in car cameras (forward looking, rear facing, and footwell). The data will not be as extensive as the current computer car, but may still provide the basics (throttle, steering, and braking inputs). All the data/video looks like it will be stored on a memory card that you can bring to a kiosk and then burn your information to a DVD.

Computer controlled throttle that can be programable to allow different levels of power for schools and race series events (make sure mine is set to 11!).

One chassis can be fit with or without wings so they can be usable for school or race series events.

They kept refering to a non-tubular steel chassis but no details on how it would be constructed. What other options would there be besides a monocoque?

That was the extent of the information, draw your own conclusions from there. None of this was shared in confidence (or so my Heineken soaked brain remembers) so hopefully I am not letting any true secrets out. Looking forward to seeing the final product!
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Old 04-17-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Kevin,
Sounds promising and ahead of schedule... Good Stuff!
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Old 04-17-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

I'm sure the basics are not something that would be so secretive. It's been widely talked about which two chassis will be tested and considered. First the Maygale sp?? which I believe is the FBMW car, basically. Except that I believe Skip has asked it be set-up with a dual front shock set-up instead of the finicky single shock. Still waiting for delivery of this chassis.

Now the one being tested as we speak. Again, no secret, an Elan or Panoz.. funny huh... Which most people probally know is the FMazda chassis. From my limited experience with the two, it seems this is a little more robust than the Magayle, and maybe capable of a little bit more ground clearance, kind of important with how much agricultural racing takes place in Skippy races. But, this is just my guess, from appearances.

So, two proven chassis - they just need to put miles on them to see what will work best for our purposes. In my mind one of the biggest decisions has to do with part $$$$$ and crash damage $$$$$ structure. That's where probally most of the creative thinking is probally gonna have to take place to make this car a reality. And of course I'm sure once it did happen the first delivery of cars would consist of a national fleet, followed up by part 2 and then another fleet to start up regionals. Probally over the course of two years. And all that speed at Sebring cannot be attributed to weight. Even IF it was a 200-300 pound difference, which I doubt that, with 130 hp that wouldn't do it. Most of the speed would just be because of the much more capable chassis.. I believe top speed was almost identical, just a lot more cornering speed and probably better braking. Hell, just imagine an R/T being a foot wider, what that would do...

I'm sure they are gonna want to put as many miles on the car as possible, so keep your eyes open and you'll probally see it run. Pretty much anytime Skip has a track rented, especially beside a home base. Makes more sense at the beginning of a week, also with less of a crowd around It'll be really cool when BOTH cars are there at the same time.

Last edited by sydude; 04-17-2006 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 04-18-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Hey Guys,
I raced at Sebring that weekend, and was on track with the test car - - it's definitely fast. I don't know what times it was running, but a couple of things very noticable about the car was how flat it cornered, it was on slicks, and was louder than the RT's - - so the combination of a skilled test driver, better chassis set up, slicks, and less restricted engine = speed - - - not to mention it looks fantastic. I'm also concerned that our costs will increase with the new car - - time will tell, it was cool to be on track with it though

Steve (TFR)
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  #5  
Old 04-18-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcote
Even IF it was a 200-300 pound difference, which I doubt that, with 130 hp that wouldn't do it. Most of the speed would just be because of the much more capable chassis.. I believe top speed was almost identical, just a lot more cornering speed and probably better braking. Hell, just imagine an R/T being a foot wider, what that would do...
Just repeating what I was told . I would also find it hard to believe there would be that much of a difference from just weight alone.

One thing that I like is that I no longer have an interest in looking at doing another race series. I have been researching other series or purchasing a used Radical just to get some varying seat time. I think these new cars would satisfy my need for a different experience, even if they are over 2 years away. I have enough patience to wait and keep the extra cash in my pocket.
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  #6  
Old 04-19-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Does anyone know who drove the new car at Sebring?
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  #7  
Old 04-19-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

that's be Jason Holehouse.. I believe him and Gerardo are scheduled to do most of the testing at the beginning, with probally more people lined up after the first few outings.. I do remember in an email sent out awhile ago it was said they were looking forward to having as many instructors experince the car as possible. We'lll see about that. I know I ALWAYS have my gear ready.. and the car will be at Lime Rock sometime shortly..



ohh and Kevin.. there is talk that it is POSSIBLE that these could be the national cars as soon as the '07 season
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  #8  
Old 04-19-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Don't race to conclusions. This first prototype is not reflective of the car that might replace the current school and Series car. Much more involved in the decision than Lap time and looks. The new car process is more about standardizing the fleet from school cars to regional race cars to National Cars. Engine mapping can change the HP at each level and wings and tires can be used to change the car's capability at each stage of its use. Early tests are no indication of what the final format will be, except that we're dealing with 21st century technology vs, 1976 tech. Everyone involved is aware that customer cost is an important issue. I'm not divulging any secrets, just trying to calm the excitement that all of us naturally feel about the prospects of a new race car.
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  #9  
Old 04-20-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Anyone know the actual number of current style school and race series cars? Any speculation on what SBR would do with all that equipment when they retire it and move to the new car? I'm sure much of that asset base is fully depreciated, but nonetheless, that is alot of hardware to walk away from.
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Old 04-20-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

appr. 60 R/T's and about the same for school cars... and a whole lotta spare chassis and parts.. I'd imagine the best thing to do would be to try to find a buyer for the whole lot...
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  #11  
Old 04-21-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

The most likely format would be to move the new cars toward Race Series and Advanced events while using the existing inventory of F/D cars and RT 2000's for school activities, using up spares and hardware to gradually reduce the inventory of parts on hand. Not sure who would be a likely customer for 120 tube-frame cars without creating a competitor.
Not a SBRS sanctioned opinion.

Sure hope it can happen. Lots of good suggestions from all of experienced Skippy folks toward what to build into a new car that would improve shortcomings of the current cars. Input, for the first time since the three times we have changed car design, was solicited by magement, an encouraging sign. Exciting if we get it right.

The eternal optimist....Papa Lopez
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  #12  
Old 04-21-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

If memory serves correctly the entire collection of old Skippy Pro-Series cars and spares were sent off to a race series in Australia along with some technical assistance to get them started.

So there may well be someone out there who could take the fleet of RT's far enough away to not pose a competitive threat and pay down some of the new car expenses, eventually.

Your integration of new and old Papa Lopez, sounds pretty reasonable as well.
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  #13  
Old 04-22-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

The old Pro cars went to South Africa (not Australia). But I can't see anyone buying all these old cars.

Has anyone whose seen the new car testing taking any pictures of it. Because I'm sure some of us would like to see it.
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  #14  
Old 04-22-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Thanks for the correction on my continent mix up George and we're also voting in favor of pictures of that bad boy as well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by George Sladky
The old Pro cars went to South Africa (not Australia). But I can't see anyone buying all these old cars.

Has anyone whose seen the new car testing taking any pictures of it. Because I'm sure some of us would like to see it.
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  #15  
Old 04-22-2006
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Unhappy Re: Future Race Series Cars...

This is how it sound to me. The new car will cost more to build, more to repair and more to rent! Maybe the cost of a race weekend can finally get over $5000.

Hopefully it will be safer. It better be, because as soon as a pretender like me (and many of the guys I race with) get to do 110 MPH laps at LRP instead of the current 95MPH it will no doubt result in even more and nastier crashes.

I guess the good news is the wife (OLDWOMAN) and I can finally start doing a few vacations a year because I won't be able to afford the $10,000 a year it will require for 5 hours in a race car.


OLDMAN
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  #16  
Old 04-23-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

OLDMAN.. it's probally not a good idea to jump to conclusions like that... It's pretty obvious that alot of the costs are probally higher than they need to be with today's car BECAUSE of the "OLD" technology.. SOO MUCH of our current cars parts are made ONLY for Skip since there's nothing really like it out there..being kinda of a 70's FF and Dodge hybrid... It could probally only help matters if our chassis becomes and up to date piece that is already being used heavily elsewhere...

And daly.. since the testing has JUST BEGUN, the car being an Elan is pretty much just a new F Mazda with our Dodge motor.. So if you wanna know what it looks like and can't see it for your self..look at a F Mazda.. there ya go.. Of course, like Papa Lopez has said, one of the big things is how to make this new car more easily addaptable for the progression of our racers, so things will change somewhat, but what you see now is an awesome starting point
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  #17  
Old 04-23-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Sy made a clever April Fools post last year that sparked a discussion of many of these same issues. The real discussion begins after Gerardo's post.

http://www.teamjuicyracing.com/forum...=3804#post3804
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  #18  
Old 04-24-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Will the fuel capacity be larger so we can have longer races? If really larger, you could do double lapping, double practice and triple qualifying without refueling and get the day done before dark.
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  #19  
Old 04-24-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Greist
Will the fuel capacity be larger so we can have longer races? If really larger, you could do double lapping, double practice and triple qualifying without refueling and get the day done before dark.
The recently refuelled car would be a tad heavier than one that had been used for one or two qualifying events, however, and the disparity could create an advantage or disadvantage (or maybe use high revs on the warmup laps to lessen the load).
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Old 04-24-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Good point John,

A larger tank would be more convenient but would also bring up the interesting question of weight. With the capacity for double or triple sessions, the tanks would still have to be equalized for qualifying and racing as a half tank vs full tank would be a significant weight penalty. The current small tanks keep things remarkably equal by default as they all have to be topped up between sessions no matter what.

Half the battle would be won if they could design a less time consuming refueling method (Having to pull each seat to eyeball a full tank is certainly arcane), but I agree that longer runs would be a nice option.

My frequently faulty memory thinks the current car holds about 5 gallons. I'm guessing we get somewhere around 10mpg so if you made the tank 7 gallons you'd certainly have enough to exhaust us grand masters guys.

With double or triple fuel would we need double and triple nomex as well?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Greist
Will the fuel capacity be larger so we can have longer races? If really larger, you could do double lapping, double practice and triple qualifying without refueling and get the day done before dark.
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Last edited by dalyduo; 04-24-2006 at 12:22 PM.
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  #21  
Old 04-24-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Until we start equalizing car weights - done presently only in National Kid's series - we can think of unequal fuel loads as part of the SBR series' charm. I bet testers don't compulsively check gas levels before putting a car "in the window." And many carry around a lot more weight than 5 gallons of gas all the time.

Still, it could be fun watching folks tie themselves in knots over a few pounds of fuel.
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  #22  
Old 04-24-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

The current cars do hold more then 5 gallons. (I think it's up near 7,but I could be wrong.)

As for the new car, I had talked to people on the design team about it and they told me that with the new motor you should be able to drive for 1 hour. Not the 30-35 minutes you get out of the current cars.

Now just picture running 60+ straight laps at LRP... That is if nobody crashes first.
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  #23  
Old 04-24-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Longer races would be something worth paying for!
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  #24  
Old 04-24-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Greist
Until we start equalizing car weights - done presently only in National Kid's series - we can think of unequal fuel loads as part of the SBR series' charm. I bet testers don't compulsively check gas levels before putting a car "in the window." And many carry around a lot more weight than 5 gallons of gas all the time.

Still, it could be fun watching folks tie themselves in knots over a few pounds of fuel.
Agreed.... Heck, if we're so worried about making the weights equal, why don't we use the fuel tanks as balast. Scale every driver at the beginning of the day and setup a system so that you can precicely meter the corect amount of fuel to offset the drivers own weight. Hmm, sounds like a big to me.

Comming from a 'lighter' guy (165 if you were interested ), lets just run as is. WYSIWYG- for weight anyway-.
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  #25  
Old 04-25-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

The cars originally had 7 gallon fuel cells which, running a 1600 CC Formula Ford motor, would give a solid 1/2 hour endurance. The 2 liter Dodge motor is more thirsty, but also requires an in-tank high pressure fuel pump which reduces the capacity such that 28 minutes is about the limit on fuel runs without running the risk of fuel starvation misfiring, which could affect Series finishing results.....Why we're conservative on race lengths. We also have to factor in Warm-up laps and pace-laps to come up with a safe-run time limit on races.

The last information I had on fuel capacity on the Elan prototype was a whopping 21 Gallons. It does bring up the problem of cars carrying different fuel weights, but, with a less sensitive fueling system, cars can be refueled each session faster than we can manage the driver swap. Remember that not all cars in the fleet need to be refueled, just the ones that have run the last session. Therefore all cars always run on full tanks.

As far as needing more nomex protection...if you have ever seen a 7 gallon fuel fire...its about as bad as you can imagine. (Ask me about the David Loring Brake-bedding episode some time.).

Knock on wood, fuel fires have not been a major contributor toward driver injuries in the last two decades, so I wouldn't sweat that as much as being sure the seat set-up is HANS compatible.

Let's remember that the goal here is not to make a series car that is faster than what we already have...but one that is driver friendly, safe, consistent, less likely to crash, and, when the inevitable happens, is less expensive to repair, and more easily returned to the fold. Wonderful if it looks more like a modern race car, but, when racing against others in the same equipment, equality is more important than lap time. We have already moved to faster and faster lap times with the changes we have made over the last 10 years, but have we improved the drivability of the cars and made a more level playing field? I don't think so.

I vote to shift thoughts of seven second-a-lap faster cars to cars that have good, lower effort, response to steering inputs, brake effort and sensitivity, and throttle modulation. Cars that draft reasonably well to reward racecraft over the willingness to try the last second dive bomb. Most of our competitors are not headed for the professional ranks where the sole focus on winning and lap time is the name of the game. The 2 % who move on will learn the hard and dirty end of the sport as they get there. Why not try to preserve this oasis of spirited, sportsmanlike competition at a level thats not as fast and dangerous as it could be, but as quick and scary as it already is?

My 2 cents.
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  #26  
Old 04-25-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Amen Brother Wow... You should write a book about this stuff
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  #27  
Old 04-26-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

I will now sleep a little better tonight!

OLDMAN
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  #28  
Old 04-26-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Hear, hear! Spot on Carl.

A return to longer races, as in "the good old days," seems feasible. Better value for sure.

John
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  #29  
Old 04-26-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

One of the many suggestions I made for inclusion in the new car spec. was a fuel level sight guage. That way we could decide the level to which we want all cars fueled. Wouldn't have to be a full load every time....as long as all the cars were at the same level, they'd have the same fuel weight.
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  #30  
Old 04-26-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Lopez
Knock on wood, fuel fires have not been a major contributor toward driver injuries in the last two decades, so I wouldn't sweat that as much as being sure the seat set-up is HANS compatible.
Carl, do you have any info about efforts to make the new car HANS compatible? I am not the only person to experience belt slippage off of the HANS device during a race. A couple of months ago I sent George Ayres an email requesting that the HANS specifications on shoulder harness anchors be reviewed so that the belts stay in place and do not slip off.
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  #31  
Old 04-26-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

I know from discussions with the SBRS people that HANS compatibility is a given.
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  #32  
Old 04-26-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Extreemly important that this be incorporated in the new car and I think the powers-that-be are aware of this.
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  #33  
Old 04-26-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Lopez
Let's remember that the goal here is not to make a series car that is faster than what we already have...but one that is driver friendly, safe, consistent, less likely to crash, and, when the inevitable happens, is less expensive to repair, and more easily returned to the fold. Wonderful if it looks more like a modern race car, but, when racing against others in the same equipment, equality is more important than lap time. We have already moved to faster and faster lap times with the changes we have made over the last 10 years, but have we improved the drivability of the cars and made a more level playing field? I don't think so.

I vote to shift thoughts of seven second-a-lap faster cars to cars that have good, lower effort, response to steering inputs, brake effort and sensitivity, and throttle modulation. Cars that draft reasonably well to reward racecraft over the willingness to try the last second dive bomb. Most of our competitors are not headed for the professional ranks where the sole focus on winning and lap time is the name of the game. The 2 % who move on will learn the hard and dirty end of the sport as they get there. Why not try to preserve this oasis of spirited, sportsmanlike competition at a level thats not as fast and dangerous as it could be, but as quick and scary as it already is?
Carl -- The design goals and priorities you have articulated seem exactly right to me. I hope you and like minded instructors, who have been around a long time and understand what makes the Skip Barber Race Series what it is, have the ear of management as this process moves forwards.
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  #34  
Old 04-27-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

(Another) Amen to Carl on his points and priorities - and on the HANS topic, it's not just the right belt placement, which many folks have, it's also the right clearance(s) between your head and the "headrest"....

If you have to sit ALL the way back in the last notch (as I do), you almost cannot wear the HANS because there is no room for it against the rear bulkhead - even if you remove the, er, "headrest".

One bit of research the F1 guys did showed that putting good perimeter padding around the head AND an effective rear pad helped reduce head/neck injuries from lateral and/or rearward loading - would be a good design feature....

I'd HAVE to believe the guys are already factoring that in....
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  #35  
Old 04-27-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

al with a neck that size you can drive without a hans. it fills up the whole cockpit

hope to see you at VIR
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  #36  
Old 04-27-2006
AlDelattre AlDelattre is offline
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Well, Sid, glad to see you're warming up for the summer season....and, for the record, thanks to wrestling and 13 years as a hooker in national rugby, I have a size 20 neck, but I DO try and wear a HANS, esp since my big head weighs so much

I am NOT doing VIR - had planned on it, but need to fly out Saturday to China for the week - but will make the next round - see you then.
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  #37  
Old 04-28-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Carl's contributions to the new car ideas have resonated loudly internally. Details will obviously continue to be tight, but this type of discussion is healthy, and you can bet the powers are watching.

John, I got a big grin reading your comments about drivers getting wrapped up in the fuel thing. I can already see Duerson checking his fuel level!

We have a LONG way to go with testing and design work. We have some great guys working on it, and I have faith they are listening to you all, especially with regard to cost and safety. Believe me, no one wants it to be more expensive. I know its hard to see how that will work now, but give these guys a chance to figure it out. It's a wonderful engineering challenge.
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  #38  
Old 04-28-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

AL i did not know you were a hooker.i guess in california anything for a buck
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  #39  
Old 04-29-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

It seems to me it would be highly beneficial for CUSTOMERS who could provide feedback that would SPAN GENERATIONAL DIVISIONS to drive the new car AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. And when I say this, I'm not suggesting Duerson Sr. and Jr. If you know what I mean. And I know you do.
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  #40  
Old 04-29-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Will there be a test mule at VIR next week?
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  #41  
Old 04-29-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgreist
It seems to me it would be highly beneficial for CUSTOMERS who could provide feedback that would SPAN GENERATIONAL DIVISIONS to drive the new car AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
Glad to volunteer.
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  #42  
Old 05-01-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgreist
It seems to me it would be highly beneficial for CUSTOMERS who could provide feedback that would SPAN GENERATIONAL DIVISIONS to drive the new car AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. And when I say this, I'm not suggesting Duerson Sr. and Jr. If you know what I mean. And I know you do.
Obviously, you must mean for Alexander Rossi and Dick Lippert to provide the trial runs. That would definitely span the generational divisions, as you have requested . . . . .
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  #43  
Old 05-01-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PT Cruiser
Obviously, you must mean for Alexander Rossi and Dick Lippert to provide the trial runs. That would definitely span the generational divisions, as you have requested . . . . .
Actually, I think Tom Cochran is the oldest semi regular runner and Miles Durfee at 75, may be the actual oldest, but fighter jocks have a 10 year handicap, so Tom and I are really the oldest and we volunteer our years of experience, are ready to serve and expect to be asked. Remember, respect your elders.
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  #44  
Old 05-01-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

This is really funny....guys competing for the most-advanced geezer! I think we should also factor in appropriate cardiovascular health... which would rule out the ridiculously fit like.... Dr. Greist. We need a number of really out-of-shape couch potatoes, to make sure the car doesn't pose a threat to kill off our constantly-aging typical driver profile. We need power steering, good ventilation, hydration, maybe some oxygen supply, and cardiac data-collection telemetry going to a well-respected MD that has a black flag handy. Maybe Sid would volunteer as a test subject...I know I would.
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  #45  
Old 05-01-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Carl, before you test the new car, we need you and all the not-yet-late greats running in memorials - fun to be had by all - consider this a formal invitation. Terry, Bob, Don, Divi, Nick, Steve, Paul Brand, Peter Dannon &..... where are you? Only Walt runs with any regularity now.
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  #46  
Old 05-01-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

John:
You're right that we should do more in-car stuff, but when we see you guys driving so well, and so quickly, we're (Well, I am ) reluctant to go out there and show you how much of my driving expertise is theoretical and not easily turned into actually turning the lap time. The master instructor's anthem... "The older I get the faster I was". is in place. Joe Gibbs can show and tell you how to score a touchdown, although he probably couldn't do it, off tackle.

The great coaching quote I like is. "You don't have to be able to lay an egg to be able to smell a rotten one." True, we really should get back in the cars more often, but the reality frequently is that you guys drive more often and more competitively than many of us senior instructors do. While we can provide input from outside-in, we're more like counselors than role models. But,.. you know../, it would be a kick to get back in the cars and have at it. Its just that we have an example, and a standard, to set and we want our competitors to do as we preach, not as we do.

Carl
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  #47  
Old 05-01-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Here is a video short DalyDuo and I put together for the winter series banquet videos that ties into this subject.....

R/T 40+ 2 min


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Lopez
This is really funny....guys competing for the most-advanced geezer! I think we should also factor in appropriate cardiovascular health... which would rule out the ridiculously fit like.... Dr. Greist. We need a number of really out-of-shape couch potatoes, to make sure the car doesn't pose a threat to kill off our constantly-aging typical driver profile. We need power steering, good ventilation, hydration, maybe some oxygen supply, and cardiac data-collection telemetry going to a well-respected MD that has a black flag handy. Maybe Sid would volunteer as a test subject...I know I would.
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Last edited by cdh; 05-02-2006 at 09:01 AM.
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  #48  
Old 05-02-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdh
Here is a video short DalyDuo and I put together for the winter series banquet videos that ties into this subject.....

R/T 40+ 2 min
Brilliant, brassy, and a bit sobering - and I still think our senior instructor-friends should mix it up with us in memorials so their coaching would be more current than nostalgic. Carl could also write a senior's sequel to Going Faster.
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  #49  
Old 05-02-2006
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

Roger on the sequel John....we could do it in large print. The Video is terrific. We have to get a copy to Dave Despain. Roso. You have to get on this!
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  #50  
Old 05-02-2006
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George Sladky George Sladky is offline
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Re: Future Race Series Cars...

I was thinking, since the Walt vs Divi race at MT was such a good show, Skip should hold an all instructer memorial.
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