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View Poll Results: What Skip Barber Race Series format would you like to see in '08
The current two group system. (Championship & Sportsman) 11 26.83%
The old one group system. (One Championship for all) 30 73.17%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 01-13-2008
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Changing SBRS Groups

I was talking with some of the staff and management at SBRS and they were talking about the pros and cons of the current race group format (Championship group and Sportsman group) and whether or not it would be more beneficial to go back to the “old format” of run groups.fficeffice" />

To give a little history to those that don’t know, the current run grouping was created about 4 seasons ago. The consensus from us drivers was that we wanted to race “our buddy(s)” at every weekend. So with a little help Todd, Kelly and staff created three run groups, Championship, Expert and Sportsman. The goal was that the fast guys would race in the Championship group, Mid-speed drivers would race in the Expert group and the new or “speed challenged” drivers would race in the Sportsman group. This way everyone would be racing other drivers of equal speed, would have more fun and more people would get on the podium and get a trophy.

The problem that occurred that first season was that there wasn’t enough drivers to “fill the field” in each of the three classes, so they abandoned the Expert group and we ended up with just Championship and Sportsman, each competing for their own title and trophies. The next season(s) the problem was that as the season progressed, none of the Sportsman drivers wanted to move up to the faster Championship group (even though they were clearly fast enough) because they wanted to win the Sportsman Title and crown. This created a small Championship group and multiple large Sportsman groups. So this last season they eliminated the Sportsman Title and trophy and if (or when) a Sportsman driver proved to be fast enough they were moved to the Championship group. This was a plus in that it did help fill the Championship groups and also allowed for a driver to continue their learning curve of getting faster and improving their race craft, at least on the surface. It also allowed the driver to score more points and finish higher in the overall standings. Unfortunately (and the case no matter what format is used) the system doesn’t work for everybody and there is a relatively large group of people that really don’t fit in the Sportsman or Championship group. Also it is a pretty big logistical nightmare for those back in the office to arrange the groups so that it is fair, etc.

So my thought, or suggestion, is why not just go back to the old format? It seems like it worked for the majority?

To explain to those that weren’t around or don’t remember the old format here it is;
Everyone signed up for the weekend is equally split in to groups so that each group consists of 4-5 fast drivers, 4-5 mid-speed drivers and 4-5 new/speed challenged drivers. This way everyone had several other drivers of similar speed to race against and everyone competed in just one Championship (there was still a race within a race for the master drivers). As the season progressed, the series staff would make sure to mix the groups up so that over the course of the season, everybody raced everybody at least once if not twice. At the finale weekend typically the top 15-20 in points were in one group and battled it out for the final points standing and the trophies, glory, bragging rights, etc.

So what does everybody think?
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  #2  
Old 01-13-2008
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WatertownNewbie WatertownNewbie is offline
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Re: Changing SBRS Groups

The old system already occurs anytime we run a memorial race, and those are always a lot of fun. It always seems that there is somebody else of comparable speed somewhere in the mix, and the drivers who are relatively equal tend to find each other eventually. As long as there is some assurance that a really fast or slow driver will not end up in a group with no one else of similar speed, then maybe the old system is a good idea. (A race that feels like a lapping day is not much fun.)

There is one practical issue, especially given the recent discussion of shorter races. A slower driver will be more likely to lose a lap or two from the prescribed race distance in a race with faster drivers than in a purely slower group (i.e., most Sportsman races). To the extent that race distance matters, and if there is a concern about doing everything possible to attract and retain new drivers, there could be some beginners who feel discouraged by being in a field with really fast drivers and by losing laps from being lapped.

That last point is of more importance to slower drivers, so here is one for the faster drivers. More than a few fast drivers have commented on how they feel safer and less likely to suffer crash damage when they are in a group of experienced faster drivers. Mixing the groups completely will increase the likelihood of a fast driver running up on a new driver who is still coming to grips with speed and the art of being passed.

Having said all of this, I would not be opposed to going back to what you outlined as the old system.
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  #3  
Old 01-13-2008
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Re: Changing SBRS Groups

Go back to the old system.
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  #4  
Old 01-13-2008
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Re: Changing SBRS Groups

I never raced under the old system so I am not sure which system is better. I spend most of my time in the middle of the sportsman pack and I usually find some one to race if I don't screw up. I did notice a reluctance on the part of the guys winning sportsman races to move up but most eventually did. I do not blame them. If I ever start getting regular wins or podiums in sportsman I suspect I will need a firm nudge (like with a very large hammer) to move me up. One way to even out the groups is to move the fast sportsman guys up to even out the grids on a weekend by weekend basis. Run qualifiers with sportsman and champ groups but if the champs are too few then pull the needed number of sportsman up to fill out the champ grid. But use some judgement looking at time sheets etc. Eg. Don't pull the fastest sportsman driver up by himself just to fill out one grid spot in champ. Make sure that guy has some company in his race with roughly close lap times.
Eg. 5 guys in champ at RA running 2:34s 16 cars in sports fastest is 2:36 but there are 4 guys in the 2:36s. Then pull all four of those guys up. But if there are 10 champs with slowest at 2:34 and 14 in sports but the pole sitter is all by himself at 2:33 with number two at 2:36 then move the sports pole sitter up alone. He'll have more company in champ. But if there are four guys in sports at 2:37 at the front move them together or not at all. If the numbers in champ are 5 vs 15 sports move all four but if its 9 champ and 12 sports leave the four guys at the front of sports alone. Problems with this are predictable especially if conditions are different between the practice groups. It is also a problem if you cannot plan your weekend knowing what group you are in or worse if you are running a double and all these groupings are changed at the end of the day. There is enough sitting around at the track waiting. I don't think this would do any thing but make that worse.

So Skippy is left having to predict who will be how fast before each weekend. That is hard. If it weren't we would not need to run the races. I guess they should continue to reserve the right to move folks around on an ad hoc basis if there is a marked imbalance in group sizes. But if that happens let's get the moves made early in or before the weekend so people can plan their weekends. I guess the sportsman guys running doubles (are there many of those?) would either have to be moved up in all their races or none. And of course if people get moved around cars have to be reassigned.

I never really bought the idea of "you will learn more running with the fast guys" argument that was held out in the old system. The best way I will ever learn from Revere is from watching videos of him or getting tips from him in the hospitality area. I think the overriding principle should be to try to keep drivers in closely matched groups. Where the lines get drawn between groups should be determined by what the instructors know about the times/abilities of the drivers and the numbers of entrants. This should ultimately overide what the drivers believe about their place in the running order. Unfortunately, not every one is going to be happy with where they get put and this could make for some unhappy customers.

I have seen large sportsman numbers get divided into regular and seat time sportsman with the later usually running a bit slower than the former. But because all were self declared sportsman no one noticed or complained about how the groups were divided. Why should the line between sportsman and champ carry any more weight? I guess what I am suggesting is that the drivers get no say as to the group they run in. Let them state a preference but let it be clear that there are no guarantees as to where you will be put on a given weekend. The quicker sportsman racers may be pole in sportsman in July and near the back of champ in August but back to sportsman in Sept depending on the numbers and quality of the entrants on the different weekends. Of course, this will not be a problem for me where I sit but the faster sportsman guys might feel differently.






















My question for those of you who have raced in both eras is whether I might expect to learn more if I was running with a few champ drivers. My guess is that I would not. They would just go off and disappear befor I learned all that much. I do like knowing the guys in the cars around me. I had lots of fun in some intense dices with guys trusted not to be stupid. Then again there were other guys I watched very carefully.
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  #5  
Old 01-13-2008
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Re: Changing SBRS Groups

I for one am all for having race groups with closely matched competitors. I would rather see us have 3 classes with the Expert group returning.

It could easily be set up like a ladder system where qualifying and/or previous race results determining where the cuts are made in order to make up three groups. With mandatory grouping based on real results there would be no need for drivers to elect where they want to race. A simple formula of breaking the groups up into thirds could apply at any weekend.

Having made the jump this past season to Champ I spent much of my time doing seat time after the leaders left me. I would agree with the previous posts on 2 counts ; One,that driving with the fastest drivers does not always equate to getting faster or better. I would say I have made more progress when I was dicing with near equal competitiors with pressure being exerted for much of the race as oppossed to trying to keep step with a much faster group of leaders, who once out of range, offered no schooling to me. Second, racing in mixed groups with unskilled drivers can create more room for crashing opportunities that we could all use less of.

Since our series is school based we should get back to schooling the drivers regardless of abilities. Having three classes would give us all an opportunity to grow with other drivers of equal abilities and have a blast while doing it. The price of the series is getting to the point of no return if we dont make it a good experience for drivers of all levels.

My 2 cents...
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  #6  
Old 01-13-2008
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Re: Changing SBRS Groups

Dick said it well - go back to the old system for its many advantages proven over the years.

With the old system, it could take years to move up to the podium - it sure took years for Revere and me - but every step up had learning opportunities at the right level just ahead, and a sense of real accomplishment rather than an artificial victory in a group with less challenge.

At the last weekend when the points leaders are clustered in one group, sportsman-like groups occur with new winners.

Oldie but goodie method.
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  #7  
Old 01-14-2008
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Re: Changing SBRS Groups

I'm for going back to the old group format.

I'm a mid-field champ group runner who has raced with Skip since the early '90s. Under the old system, where the fastest 10-15 drivers at the weekend were spread out over 4 or 5 groups, I generally had a least a prayer of making it to the podium on any given weekend, and if the stars really lined up, I might, just maybe, find my way to the top step.

With the new format, where ALL of the fastest drivers attending the weekend are in one group, I typically finish 7th to 10th, and if I have a really great race, I might make it up to 5th. The possibility of actually winning has pretty much gone out the window since the new format was instituted. This wouldn't be so bad, except that at the same weekends, there are sportman drivers turning in laps 2-4 seconds slower than mine who are getting trophies in their races. As JP said in a thread on the same topic last year, it seems like the trophies should go to the 15 fastest guys and gals showing up for a weekend, not to the three fastest drivers, and then to the 15th-21st fastest drivers.

Some sportman argue that they like the fact that they can win a race relatively early in their career, and that immediately getting thrown in with the sharks would be overwhelming. While this is understandable, such folks should also recognize that under the current system, they will eventually get promoted out of sportsman --probably within a year or two-- and that once this occurs THEY WILL NEVER SEE ANOTHER PODIUM AGAIN . . . . unless they ultimately become very talented drivers indeed.

As it is, under the current format, I have adopted Dom Bastin's criteria for determining whether I had a good race or not: If I finish within 10 seconds of the championship winner (independent of my finishing position), I had a fabulous race. If I finish within 20 seconds of the championship winner, I've hit par for my talent level. If I'm more than 20 seconds behind, I drove poorly.

But somehow, when the folks back at the office ask me how my weekend went, they just don't understand when I tell them "really great, I finished 10th out of 15 drivers in my group, but was only 13 seconds off the lead at the end!!"

The bottom line is that the old format is much friendlier to loyal, long term customers who have made a sustained effort to maximize thier driving skills, but who don't quite have the outright talent of a Craig Durison, a Chirs Wilcox, or the whole contingent of karters that use the regional series to prepare for the following year's national championship.
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  #8  
Old 01-17-2008
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Re: Changing SBRS Groups

I would say go back to the old system. I have never raced with it, but having heard so much about it, there are many more 'up's' than 'down's'.
I think for the Sportsman drivers, they are still learning and the only way to learn, is to drive with the more experienced drivers. This way, they can learn more about the race craft, as well as the basic driving skills. The Sportsman drivers will find themselves pushing themselves to improve, so they can compete with the more experienced guys, thus, competing for podium positions (this is the only reason to have a Sportsman, to have more people go home with trophies). There is no reason for them to stay in the Sportsman category if they are just driving away from the field; rather have a few people of all speeds in the race, so a battle can be found anywhere in the field. Each weekend you can be racing with new people, and by the end of the season, you know how quick everybody is, so you can compare yourself to the best. Each race, you can learn new things from new drivers. Maybe there is a guy you haven't raced with yet, but want to, so you can see how they work the draft to find himself in the front by the end. Or a guy who can brake unbelievably late, but once you get behind him, you find that he brakes so late that he carry's way too much speed in, then loses it all in the exit. So instead of watching the more experienced guys, and trying to learn from it, do it on track. Like a free lead-follow...
With the old system, there can be big groups; instead of having 5 groups of 12 cars; there could be 3 groups of 20. This would make for much better/exciting racing for both the drivers and the spectators.
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  #9  
Old 01-18-2008
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Re: Changing SBRS Groups

After reading all this I don't think it much matters. All I want is a few folks to run with. Sounds like the old system will do that as well if not better than the current one. As Sid says if it's trophies you want there are cheaper ways to get them.
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  #10  
Old 01-18-2008
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Re: Changing SBRS Groups

Ted, What happens at the track, stays at the track....
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  #11  
Old 01-19-2008
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Re: Changing SBRS Groups

I wonder if the Championship guys would want to race with a bunch of rank beginners again with all of our unusual driving mistakes and weird cornering lines
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Old 01-19-2008
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Re: Changing SBRS Groups

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEORGE View Post
I wonder if the Championship guys would want to race with a bunch of rank beginners again with all of our unusual driving mistakes and weird cornering lines
George,
Trust me, there's plenty of unusual driving and weird cornering in Championship!
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Old 01-19-2008
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Re: Changing SBRS Groups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowhands View Post
George,
Trust me, there's plenty of unusual driving and weird cornering in Championship!
Yea, its often called blocking!

Racing with inexperienced drivers is not a big concern. The field is usually pre-sorted in qualifying. Friday practice with them however is another issue. It used to freak me out as a newbie when running with Champ guys during Friday practice. Seemed like every lap some "crazy bonzai maniac" would come blasting by me. They in fact were completely in control. I was just overwhelmed by how quickly they could negotiate the track relative to me.
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Old 01-19-2008
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Re: Changing SBRS Groups

I was just thinking of last falls race at LRP when I was passed going into turn one by the Panzer Attack. He passed me on the inside....GOING BACKWARDS!! In the grass!!
It didn't work out so well for him. although it was a novel approach. He hit the inside curb and sort of flew through the apex into another car. (Boy I bet he was surprised) This was a novel was to gain a position.
Maybe this should be a new thread about the most insane passes we have encountered.
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