Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedback
I was just introduced to another Head and Neck Restraint system and thought I'ld share it with everyone....my buddy has done some research on different systems and feels this is the best one. It looks prety good to me too, so take a look www.isaacdirect.com . I'm not sure if it can be used in the skippy cars where we'll have to remove it each weekend or not. Maby this is the way for the school to go!?
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Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedback
In an open cockpit crash or rollover, strange things can happen. I've looked over their material and I'd be uncomfortable with loose shock absorber pistons near my head and neck in our open cockpit racecars. I also don't like the idea of having my helmet attached directly to the car's shoulder belts. In addition, there is a lot of hardware that could get loose, lost or misassembled in the adrenaline rush of pre-race preparations. I like the simple elegance of the HANS design.
I find it odd that their rental program involves using the device with double face tape to hold the hardware on your helmet. They want you to test the device at speed but do it in a way that defeats the function of the device?? HHmmm. It also appears to be impossible to hook up the Isaac without external help, as opposed to the HANS which is comparatively easy to engage by yourself. Personally, I like the way the HANS device secures me under the shoulder belts, and having crash tested mine into the LRP downhill tire wall at speed I can testify that the only parts of me that were not seriously sore after the impact were my head and neck! The HANS device is a strong simple safe design that works and that's my preference. However, that's just one opinion and everyone should investigate the options and make their own informed choice. |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedback
I so agree DD, the Isaac looks downright scary, no thanks. Form Follows Function, and as you say, the design of the HANS is engineering elegance.
On your statement "Personally, I like the way the HANS device secures me under the shoulder belts, and having crash tested mine into the LRP downhill tire wall at speed I can testify that the only parts of me that were not seriously sore after the impact were my head and neck!" That got me thinking of a Photoshop of a HANABALAAS - Head and Neck and Body and Legs and Arms Support device :puzzled: If I ever finish the edit I'm working on I will play with it. :D Also, GMAN, excuse my morbid curiosity but was there a camera on the roll over (was being the operative word)? . |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedback
thanks for the feedback and yes there was a camera. based on previous experiences, the cameras usually shut down at the moment of impact, but we will see what happens in a week or two when i get the dvd.
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Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
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The Isaac was first used in a Barber car in 2002. |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
Thanks for the clarification Mr. Baker.
1.) Would it be correct to assume that being able to do an unassisted quick connect requires some pre-installation and assisted adjustments to the shoulder belt and helmet hardware? 2.) How much transition time would be required to jump from a car you have pre-installed the hardware on, to another car without pre-installed and adjusted hardware? During a recent lapping session a mechanical problem forced a quick move from one car to another. This was not an issue with the HANS device. Thanks, Pat Daly Quote:
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Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
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Anytime. Quote:
Other photos can be found via the "Other Pages" link at the top banner. Quote:
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Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedback
We've got to be joking right?
At first I said, "hmm... mini shock absorbers. Brilliant. Looks relatively simple. I'm skeptical, but willing to learn more." Then I hear that they recommend and even encourage temporary installation with double sided tape?! No wait, that's "binary adhesive"... must be more expensive. Give me a break. Wait a minute... if the "binary adhesive" is so godamn good... just give me some of that. I'll put it on the back of my helmet. We all know it's coming just before we wreck. Just before impact, I'll press my head back against the head rest. Problem solved! No, no, wait. How about Crazy Glue?! That is even stronger than double sided tape. In fact, I once saw a guy on TV turn his whole room upside down! One $2 bottle of that stuff, we glue everybody's head to the head rest and we're done! |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedback
Now, that's funny.
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Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedback
How bout Velcro
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Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedback
Duct tape?
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Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
Gregg,
I can see the ease of use in a school environment where ownership has made your device the standard by providing all cars with damper assemblies and helmets with attached mounts. However, in the SBRS racing environment there is no requirement for head restraints, racers provide their own devices, and racecars are shared by 2 or more drivers on any given lapping, practice or racing day. Therefore using the Issac would require installation and removal of the damper assemblies before and after every single run. I'm not suggesting it couldn't be done, but it would certainly be a greater inconvenience than that of a HANS device. I admire your courage in sending off rental kits with double face tape for people to temporarily "test" the fit of your product, but it would seem to me only a matter of time and human nature before someone screws up big time and crash tests the adhesive limits of double face tape with their neck. (Though I certainly hope I'm mistaken about that.) I'm also not comfortable with the option allowing the helmet hardware to be attached only with aerospace adhesive, even if that adhesive is stronger than bolts through the shell itself. On this point it's not about the strength of the adhesive, its about the notion that a mistake in the application or curing process might never be known until a failure at the ultimate moment of need. There is no way to truly test the bond and that is unsettling. I do like those over-sized attachment bolts on my helmet for the Hans device because I can check them for tightness and easily see if they're damaged. While playing devil's advocate today I also applaud your effort to build a better restraint that hopefully saves racers lives and wish you good luck. Pat Quote:
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Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
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I was unclear. The setting at the schools where Isaac systems are used is identical to the SBRS environment you describe, i.e. head and neck restraints are not required and many students bring their own helmets and H&N restraints. These are two-seater cars where the instructors switch from the driver's seat to the passenger's seat, moving the Isaac systems as needed. The students are typically on track for no more than five minutes. It's an extra step, sure, but it eliminates the fit and cost issues of a HANS device for each driver. We have endurance teams with drivers using a variety of H&N restraints, or none. The Isaac system is either removed if not needed, or flipped over the seat back and ignored. Quote:
HANS customers do the same thing (use tape for trial), but the company does not assist them in this regard and rarely, if ever, will provide a refund if the driver is not satisfied. Quote:
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For a school setting, the choice would be adhesive if minimum maintenance were an issue, or bolts if low-tech made everyone feel better. Either one works fine. If the issue is risk management, the idea of blowing a hole through a helmet and voiding its Snell certification, then installing a piece of hardware requirng yet another maintenance log is not very appealing. Quote:
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Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
Mr. Baker: Since this has turned into a full-fledged Isaac marketing thread, I'd ask that you respond to the following quotes cited on the HANS Device web site (citing the March 2004 issue of VINTAGE MOTORSPORT):
Dr. John Melvin (a well known safety expert): "The Isaac is effective at reducing neck tension but it is ineffective at reducing head motion. A group who viewed a video of the Isaac being sled tested let out a "collective gasp" because of the unusual and violent helmet motion that occurred." Tom Gideon (Director of Safety for GM Racing) and John Melvin: "Placing steel rods (referring to the Isaac design) so close to the driver's head and neck seems like an unsound idea." I may have missed it on your site, but I'd would like to see video of the sled test to judge for myself. Also, what about SFI 38.1 certification? Thanks, Fuent |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
Perhaps this page from their site will help us all understand how the Isaacs system works. It's easy to miss when you're looking around, so I have included it here.
http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/Gearheads.html and then this to follow that one too (this one's easy to find after the first one) http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/MathAddicts.html |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
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I must have missed that part. This thread began with a concern about Barber providing head and neck protection in the most effective manner possible, consistent with the wishes of the participants. Quote:
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Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
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Re: The IsaacŪ Head and Neck Restraint System Discussion Thread
I've moved all of the posts that regard the IsaacŪ system into it's own thread, which I think it deserves.
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Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
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Re: Try it... you'll like it. Or maybe not.
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Here is what you can expect: http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/OtherPages/Videos.html |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
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You absolutely, positively hate the HANS in a Skippy car, but would be happy to try it again. Yet you would never try an Isaac system, which you have never tried. http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/OtherPages/Videos.html |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedback
I personally hate a device which has been proven to be effective, is the standard in the industry, and does not bother the vast majority of my competitors. Plus, it doesn't bother me at all in a Grand Am Car.
Further, I am perfectly happy with the alternative device that I currently use, which has also proven (in personal experience) to be effecvtive. So, would I be willing to try HANS again to assure that I gave it a fair trial? Yes. Does that mean I ought to also try a new, and as yet untested device? Especially as that one does not pass the "smell test"? Certainly not. Sorry. But, thanks for asking. |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedback
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But on the other hand, people become comfortable with what they like/use for many many different reasons. |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedback
Michael,
Have you been smelling my HANS again?:confused: |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedback
Anyone interested should go read this thread in the "Instructions, Race Tracks and Equipment" forum and see all kinds of considerations about a device that is not yet proven in the marketplace.
The IsaacŪ Head and Neck Restraint System Discussion Thread Clearly Mr. Baker, with kwlorentzen as an advocate, is heavily invested in this project and wants us to try it. He may have built the better mousetrap but until his device is embraced as a valid safe alternative to the standard of the industry by other mainstream forms of racing, it is hard to see his persistant marketing as anything more than financially motivated hype to gain a market foothold. Kind of a catch-22. When it comes to being a crash test dummy for a new safety product... we're a tough sell, and we should be! Quote:
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Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedback
Just wanted to clarify that I almost deleted my post after I posted it. I knew this thread was discussing the HANS device and I didn't want to further extend any off topic discussion. I did end up leaving it in as a point of inquiry.
I'm not advocating really that anyone should change from from the decice they currently use, but personally I think the ISSACS is more appealing. Just my two cents. |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
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I'm an engineer, not a salesman. I am concerned with the product kicking butt in the crash lab and at the track. The late majority eventually give up their kerosene lamps. Quote:
(Actually, I am heavily invested in structural implants for neurological and orthopaedic surgeons.) Quote:
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Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
"Better at sex than anyone...all I need is a partner."
Cute. Where do the adults play? |
Re: The IsaacŪ Head and Neck Restraint System Discussion Thread
First things first Baker... based on your last two posts, you have proven at least one point. You may (or may not) be an engineer, but you are certainly not a salesman.
Sincerely, One closed-minded, late adopting, skeptic. |
Re: The IsaacŪ Head and Neck Restraint System Discussion Thread
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Now that we've established that, let's get back to your "smell test." Gregg Registered-Professional-Engineer-#11671 Baker |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
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Why are you involved in this Mickey Mouse $5MM racing market then? PS. The "Better at sex..." title can be changed at any time in the user preference section. |
Moved posts
I've moved the recent posts about the IsaacŪ system from the HANS discussion thread back to here. It's requested that all posts regarding the IsaacŪ device be only made here. The HANS discussion thread's primary purpose is to discuss (and in my opinion to convince Skip Barber of) the need to require the use of a head and neck restraint system. In my opinion, that is the most important point of the discussion... getting people to use the device and to prevent injuries, not to further confuse it.
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And in case you really are insulted by that user title, please note that about 95 other members now share it with you. |
Re: An Open Letter to Skip Barber Regarding HANS devices - Please Vote & Give Feedbac
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